The Mueller Investigation

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    • #12116
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,719

      I have been critical and cynical of this from the start – in large part because I do not buy that the Russians influenced the election.  However… did they, or do they influence Trump?  Maybe.  Could be Putin, could be a band of oligarchs, Russian mafia (or is it mob?) or what have you.

      Now, there are (supposedly) some leaks coming from the investigation’s draft report – which are suspect until confirmed, however…

      Let us assume a smoking gun has been found and the “actual” bomb drop is incoming shortly.  Proof of obstruction, collusion, or what have you.  What comes next?

      Impeachment?  Indictments?  Can a President be indicted?  Does he have the power to pardon himself?  Couldn’t Pence pardon him either way?  Will anything, any amount of evidence, sway the mad red hatters?  Will the likes of Mitch McConnell grow a spine?

      This is uncharted territory – even Watergate doesnt really come close.  Cronkite is gone, Dan Rather got fired for telling the truth about chimp.  The media confirmed in 2016 that they are not on our side.

      So what next?  To be honest, I think Trump is capable of anything at this point.  I do not like to think of what might happen were he cornered with nothing to lose – but I am not sure that is even possible.

      Hopefully someone can explain what comes next to soothe my paranoia… this guy has shutdown the federal government by himself – and the Republicans stand by him still.  Enough to keep this disaster going…

      So… what comes next?  I’d love to see him go and take Pence with him, but….

    • #12152
      Land of Enchantment
      Keymaster
      • Total Posts: 741

      I don’t see impeachment accomplishing anything other than adding his name to the list of presidents who were impeached. The Senate would never vote to convict and remove him from office–they would need 66 votes–a supermajority. As for indictments, no, cannot indict a sitting president; however, there may be sealed indictments awaiting his departure from office. Yes, Pence could pardon him but it will never get that far…

      My suspicion is that everything Trump is hiding is related to business dealings rather than election tampering. Most of us know Assange never gave the Russians a damn thing–that was a Big Lie perpetrated by Robby Mook et al the day after the Queen lost the election. It’s complete BS. The media seized on it because they wanted to distract the public from the real reasons she lost. Unless they find that votes were cast by Russians or votes were switched via software tampering they have nothing. All they have to my knowlege is ads on Facebook, Twitter and etc and anyone influenced by that probably should not be voting in the first place.

      Mitch McConnell is up for rejection in 2020 and he is probably safe–incredibly. I don’t think he will grow a backbone-he has far too much power as Senate Majority Leader. If he would bring the Continuing Resolution to  a vote, the Senate would likely confirm, Trump would veto it and they would override the veto and the government would be re-opened. I don’t think Trump will cave even though his numbers are plummeting. He has the disposition of a toddler (not to insult toddlers) and is incapable of any degree of sympathy and has never experienced empathy. So we watch and wait…I don’t think there is any workaround for this situation but would delighted if someone with constitutional/legal expertise would enlighten me….

      Finally, Michael Cohen is scheduled to testify publicly before Congress on February 7th. He knows where all the bodies are buried and I suspect since he was around during the campaign, election and transition he has a treasure trove of information (and Mueller already knows it all…) I think the real bombshells will be revealed by  the two investigations in the Southern District of New York and will wait to see what comes of those…

       

       

      “Hope is the feathered thing that perches in your heart.” ~ Emily Dickinson

      • #12406
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 4,291

        I agree that the extent of Trump’s business interest in the Kremlin would have been followed by the FBI. Hoover started that long ago. It’s pretty amazing also that every one of us has some kind of communications file by the NSA. Yet, the hype about the Kremlin and Trump and the 2016 elections comes up with nothing.

        And, it’s all distraction in my book when the real story is how corrupt our elections have become at the most basic level.

        Pass the popcorn! 

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

        • #12411
          MistaP
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 2,741

          The hysteria over ‘Russia-gate’ continues to grow … but at its core there may be no there there.

          now this isn’t some random desk jockey, this is Peter Strzok, the nerve-center of everything Trussia who was able to bend every FBI rule and pushed beyond the boundaries of legality (or at least of the slightest due diligence, but hey this is Donald Trump we’re talking about, there’s no way he could–)

          and whatever they can turn up is going to be deep in the shadow of now three years of weekly through-the-roof promises: polling data going to Ukrainians tied to the firm that Clinton hired to start this whole mess won’t cut it

    • #12162
      David the Gnome
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      • Total Posts: 2,719

      Thanks LOE.  Sounds about right.  If I’m not careful, my imagination goes to all kinds of crazy places.  I think though, that your assessment is most likely accurate.  No, they probably wont really go at him.

    • #12168
      game meat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,291

      As far as what Trump will do, the only thing I know for sure is that he is going to do whatever he thinks is going to save himself. This is why I don’t really buy the doom and gloom argument that he will declare himself dictator and usher in a modern day Nazi Germany. He has no actual ideology. He doesn’t really care about his wall. He is a spineless coward at heart. I see him as being a lot more likely to work out some way to get a pardon from Pence should he end up being impeached and charged with crimes.

      Ultimately, there’s not much that he’s done that any other Republican wouldn’t have. Yeah, there’s the tariffs, and the erratic foreign policy, and I’m not saying that’s nothing but:

      Wingnut justices- any other Republican

      Tax scam-any other Republican and some Democrats

      Making crappy Obamacare even worse-any other Republican

      Deregulation-any other Republican and some Democrats

      Trying to privatize everything-any other Republican and some Democrats

      Child separation-this one is arguable

      The bottom line is most of the outrage over Trump from the corporate resistance is based on his coarse language and rhetorical style rather than his overall body of work in regards to policy. They hate what he says not what he does.

      Yeah, a lot of terrible things could happen, but senator Sanders could win in a landslide in 2020 too. We just don’t know.

       

       

       

       

       

    • #12178
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 17,068

      Nobody knows what Mueller has besides his staff and the grand jury. I suppose Cohen is going to let some cats out of the bag starting February 7. Until Mueller releases his recommendations and Cohen and maybe others testify at public hearings, who knows? Not I.

      I have said elsewhere that I believe the House should start conducting impeachment hearings for reasons completely unrelated to Russia or Russians, but other than a couple of lawsuits filed in federal courts, nothing has been done about Trump violating the Emoluments Clause on a daily basis, and Democrats seldom mention it.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #12188
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,854

      Mueller undoubtedly has something on him.  Collusion?  Obstruction?  Shady financial dealings?  We don’t know yet.  But it’s pretty certain that what does come out from Mueller or others will damage him.  Perhaps enough to get the Republican politicians to see the handwriting on the wall and put even more distance between themselves and him.   Even some of the idiots who voted for him may decide that he’s gone too far.

      If it get’s too hot he may take the easy way out and try to make a deal.   Such as no indictments and resign for “health reasons”  (bone spurs worked for him in an earlier crisis).

      At any rate, I think he’ll leave with a bigly whimper.

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

    • #12194
      glinda
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 804

      It is hard to say what actually is happening as far the investigation goes. Too many rumors. Actually very few facts as they need to protect whatever it is.

      I do not believe twiidiot is rational at all. I also think none or most of them do not care. I think the D’s have compromised themselves either through things that allow them to be blackmailed and/or their corporate promises leave us no support.I do not think they care if there is State of Emergency to save not just his arse but some others’ arses.

      They have shown that they can do anything. Frack, drill, shut down everything, privatize, etc….they already embrace the “soft” dictatorship and we may just need to figure our what now to do about it.They keep it in gentle delivery form to keep people from rioting.

      Perhaps I am too cynical and perhaps I am wrong. I hope I am wrong. But when Laws are ignored and the judges are crooked and yet nothing really happens with all the corruption and crazy verbal is promoted by MSM, well I think we need to be doing something now, as a citizenry. What I do not know. Feel the longer we wait the worse it will be.

      Animals know more than we do.

      • #12409
        ThouArtThat
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,794

        Glinda, your suspicions are spot on.  The sad reality is that America is dead and has been for a very long time.  No one wants to believe the reality yet the evidence is all there: greed, corruption and malfeasance.  Most Americans are too timid to handle and accept such truths which further enables the corrupt.  A viscous cycle of looking away from a very hard reality.  One suspects that the Mueller probe has uncovered a substantial list of crime and near-crime such that most will never see the light of day for fear of public outrage and political retribution.  What we will probably learn is just enough for a few more hand slaps and then a return to business as usual.

        Rights aren't rights if someone can take them away. They're privileges.
        That's all we've ever had in this country, is a bill of temporary privileges.

        - George Carlin

        Sooner or later we all sit down to a banquet of consequences.

        - Robert Louis Stevenson

        Politics is the entertainment division of the Military Industrial Complex.

        - Frank Zappa

    • #12355
      jerry611
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,015

      Or…Mueller finds nothing of value.

      What I mean by that is that it’s probably likely something will be found. But if it isn’t something that is a clear-cut impeachable offense….there is going to be problems. Trying to push impeachment over something trivial would likely further widen the political discourse.

      It can be argued that Clinton broke the law back in the 90s. Did he obstruct justice, lie under oath, and convince others to lie for him….I mean he was never convinced but the case can be made. Ultimately, the GOP was punished in the 1998 election for wasting the country’s time. Our politics today is a bit more explosive. So the ante is upped a bit. If Democrats find something trivial and just waste a legislative year on impeachment hearings just because they freakin hate the man…that can backfire easily. There needs to be something of value. Otherwise it is a waste of time. The Senate will never remove Trump. And you actually may end up pulling another Kavanaugh effect where his entire base unifies.

      NOW on the flip side, if Mueller finds something extreme..and there is no question..the very likely scenario in that case is Trump resigns. Pence will pardon everyone. It’s over. That’s it.

    • #12426
      Rex
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 154

      For me, it is the Donald J Trump that I knew about growing up – corrupt asshole mobster wanna be. I mean, I have no doubt the man is involved with organized crime and probably all over the planet.  The Russian Oligarchs did loan his family some money. Hell, everyone that wants to use him as a tool as propped him up and given him money – most likely for money laundering. His family is probably very good at in and all in neck deep.

      Do I expect collusion, no. Do I expect some amount of criminal activity, yes I do. So we shall see, I think it will have to wait until after this term is up.

       

      Forcing people to work without pay is akin to slavery.

    • #12464
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,719

      One thing that has bugged me about this from the beginning… Mueller was a supporter of the invasion of Iraq – he went along with the WMD story, even promoted it.  Now… it is possible that he was simply wrong or misled/lied to as others claimed they were, however…

      I was wide awake and wide eyed in those days – and I remember the inspectors saying, over and over again, that they had nothing.  They asked, over and over again, for more time.

      Now… somehow, supposedly a big intelligence briefing (along with a report almost no one read) provided Intel revealing WMDs.  I never really bought any of that.

      How could Mueller, or Powell, or Clinton, Cheney  Bush, Kerry, or ANYONE have known what the inspectors – there in the field – did not?

      Most of our allies smelled something fishy there and so did we.  Why didnt they (Clinton, Mueller, Kerry, etc.)?  Is it really the case that our leaders, investigators – all of these people at the top of the food chain – were completely hoodwinked?

      I doubt it.  They supported the war, IMO, for other reasons.

      A man who has lied once about such things (even unknowingly – as FBI director it was his duty to confirm Intel before acting/speaking on it) will probably lie again.

      I have faith in some of those who have faith in Mueller, but none in the man himself.  I guess we will see.

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