The Russiagate Spectacle: Season 2?

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    • #336307
      N2Doc
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 7,524

       

      If it’s an election year, there must be a Russiagate story. The Clintons and their neoliberal progeny, including the current standard bearer for corporate liberalism, have turned the Democratic Party into a branch office of the Deep State Inc., whose propaganda drones, the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, and MSNBC act like hired guns for the Office of War Information.

      There’s nothing new about the mainstream media (MSM) being teammates with the State Department and the CIA. Carl Bernstein published a major investigative report back in 1977 that revealed that the Times and their fellow travelers had been functioning as the overseas eyes and ears of the Agency, what was called “Operation Mockingbird,” since 1948. The MSM were practically owned by the CIA.

      The Times still goes to “The Company” before reporting events abroad. Given that the largest section of Americans still depends on television for news, and TV in turn relies heavily on the New York Times for the international news agenda, the CIA is able to feed its propaganda to the public through establishment media, even though this violates its charter. The CIA also influences public opinion through its entertainment industry liaison program, established in the mid-1990s, that in effect co-directs many American film and television productions.

      The warmongers in the liberal media are more gung-ho than even the president. Interviewing Mike Pence last year after Trump threatened to obliterate Iran, CNN’s Jake Tapper expressed the concern that “Iran would get the wrong message from the president’s restraint.” The cowboy pundit asked Pence,“Is he willing to pull the trigger,” salivating at the prospect of war.

      more

      https://www.counterpunch.org/2020/07/13/the-russiagate-spectacle-season-2/

    • #336309
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,040

      Oh and ‘complete exoneration’. AG Bill Barr, himself, cleared Trump upon the release of the Mueller Report.

      “The report recounts 10 episodes involving the president and discusses potential legal theories for connecting those activities to the elements of an obstruction offense,” Barr said. “After carefully reviewing the facts and legal theories outlined in the report and in consultation with legal counsel and other lawyers, the deputy attorney general and I concluded that the evidence developed by the special counsel is not sufficient to establish that the president committed an obstruction of justice offense.”

      Some analysts and pundits had a particularly hard time with Barr’s press conference, accusing him of being in the president’s pocket, even questioning his character.

      https://www.dailysignal.com/2019/04/20/mueller-report-trump-cleared-media-condemned/

      How dare anyone accuse Barr’s character and accuse him of being in Trump’s pocket. He has proven to be an apolitical, professional AG, if you ask me. 😉

      They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336355
      salemcourt
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,483

      I will just repeat Caitlin Johnstone.  Some people just love these Dem warmongers!

      “People who believe China is responsible for America’s coronavirus problems are even dumber than people who believe Russia is responsible for Trump’s presidency.”

    • #336356
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,022

      ..as the idea that they released the Wikileaks data and then rigged the election.Both stories sound like the scripts to bad movies,with no  bearing on reality.

      And yet people eat it up.

    • #336360
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,604

      The media is heroically reporting alleged allegations against Russia from various unknown (?) intelligence officials.  I sure am glad that that story is making it BIGLY in the media.  Not like they could talk about, oh, I don’t know… congress and the Senate being in recess in the middle of a crisis.  Or maybe remind us of how the great depression went – and how FDR had this idea that, well, a lot of people seem to think helped.

      There is no proof – and there never will be.  As it remains unproven – it remains allegation and not fact.  That is simply how it works.  Yet, watch how they dance on the head of a pin!  Watch how they scream “RUSSIA!!!” while we die in our tens of thousands, are evicted in our hundreds of thousands, millions, lose our jobs – and keep being told we have to tighten our belts.  While we watch our brave leaders bail out millionaires and billionaires – and form mighty brave task forces with Joe Biden to continue to completely ignore, well… you know, reality.

      Nevermind that your elderly neighbor who survived the virus has to pay a million dollar medical debt now!  Nevermind that they will have to declare bankruptcy after decades of working forty hours a week.  Who cares?  What is important is this alleged allegation of what Russia allegedly did.

    • #336364
      PolecatHollerer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,097

      I hope you’re saving all your posts somewhere- they’re gonna be very valuable someday when you’re a famous author.

      If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

    • #336366
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,040

      “People who believe Russia did not interfere in the 2016 at all are even dumber than people who believe Russia is responsible for Trump’s presidency.”

      With apologies to Trump, Jordan, Gorka, et. al., “Sen. Bernie Sanders introduced a resolution to force members of the Senate to go on the record in accepting the assessment of the U.S. intelligence community that Russia interfered in the 2016 presidential election …”

      https://www.sanders.senate.gov/newsroom/video-audio/sanders-introduces-resolution-to-protect-american-democracy-from-russian-meddling

      Interfered, yes. ‘Responsible for the Trump presidency’, far from it.

      They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336379
      Yanath
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,342

      @peacecorps

      Every last bit of it. None of it can withstand scrutiny, which is why you post such vague drivel.

    • #336383
      Yanath
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,342

      @peacecorps

      It isn’t their responsibility to make US “elections” secure.

      And at least they don’t murder women and children with abandon in impoverished countries for profit and hegemony, like your government does.

      • #336401
        Earthartist
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 774

        That country we vilify every chance we get has healthcare for all, so their Covid is high their deaths are low and they all got vacation pay while in lock down. There economy did not and will not take the hit we will and are.
        The other thing to keep in mind is we actually were directly involved in the Election Of Yeltsin and destruction of the USSR we proudly told everyone.
        I feel like every time I hear america trash mouthing China, or Russia, for whatever, or Syria, Iran everything we bitch about applies to us 10 fold If we want to play that game their should be an international law that says our house needs to be clean before we complain about our neighbors house.

        Earthartist

    • #336392
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,091

      Also, I am not in the hate on Bernie claque, and I still will never believe the Russiagate crap or vote for a Vichy Dem.  So imagine how this goes over with the folks here who dislike him intensely.

      Also, “Bernie says”  did not work in 2016 and it for sure won’t work in 2020, for either Russiagate or Vote for the Blue”.  Sounds like another failed DNC campaign tactic, predicated on assuming those who voted for/supported Bernie are like hillbots or are a cult.  Nope.

      • #336441
        peacecorps
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,040

        I was there a few days ago to take a look. Nothing positive about Bernie there. Not that that was a surprise. Some things never change.

        If Bernie’s opinion means little to you and he is now “enthusiastically” vilified at jpr too, that just means that we differ in the amount of respect we have for Bernie and his opinion. That if fine. You and I do not need to respect the same people.

        I know some here dropped Bernie as soon as he disagreed with Trump view that it was all a “HOAX AND WITCH HUNT”. I did not know that he was now more enthusiastically vilified here.

        There are similarities between the folks who will ‘vote Blue no matter who’ and those who will not ‘vote Blue no matter what’. I live in a very red part of Ohio so I am surrounded by the latter.

        I did also post a video from Jim Jordan and a tweet from Sebastian Gorka just to be fair.

        They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

        National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336394
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 774

      Right! You go David!

      Earthartist

    • #336399
      game meat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,241

      Sequels do tend to be less imaginative but more lazily patched together relative to the original. If I’m going to consider taking this one seriously, then at least show me the dead Americans.

      US casualties in Afghanistan peaked during 2009-2012, decline sharply from 2013-2014, and have been consistently in the 14-22 range since 2015. We are more than half way through 2020 with only nine casualties so far, and there has been a grand total of zero for more than three months. The numbers remain stable. This means there are only two possibilities:

      1. The Russian bounties are real but have not had a statistically significant impact.
      2. It’s a bunch of bullshit.

      Even if you believe the first to be true, you must concede that the hysteria is unwarranted. I’m leaning strongly towards number two because we’ve seen this before over and over and over…

    • #336407
      Yanath
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,342

      @earthartist

      “Whataboutism! Whataboutism!”

      Just thought I would preempt the absurd pretense that there is equivalence between the typical crimes committed by all governments and the truly horrific atrocities committed by the US power system, that result in the collapse of whole societies, destabilization of entire regions, historic refugees crises and the deaths of millions.

    • #336424
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,040

      Agreeing on a set of facts is more important than having a common opinion of their importance or irrelevance.

      Until we arrive at the old RW bugaboo, “One World Government”, where all people everywhere vote for their politicians, the nation-state and good ol’ national sovereignty will continue to be sacrosanct. If I get to vote for or influence British, French Russian, or Chinese elections, the ‘national sovereignty lobby’ in those countries will wail mightily. They will accuse me of ‘GLOBALISM’ (which RW ‘populists’ hate with a passion) for sticking my nose in their national affairs of another country, where it does not belong.

      They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336430
      Yanath
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,342

      @peacecorps

      Yammer on about other things instead.

       

    • #336444
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 774

      We are the worst offenders in the world of what you continually belly ache about, when our country stops bombing, starting color revolutions, stealing elections,oil, heron, minerals, and lots and lots of lives you can make these assertions. The issue is bipartisan and Bernie has never stopped any of it from happening, he generally falls in line after making his pitch. When he jumped on board the warmongers campaign he lost all credibility. Your continual russiagating is Tiresome

      Earthartist

      • #336464
        peacecorps
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,040

        So ‘guilt by association’? I live in a country that does many very bad things, so I need to sit down and shut up? Sorry, not going to happen.

        And it looks like you are another of the apparently many here who ‘enthusiastically vilify’ Bernie. It’s not just for SV anymore.

        They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

        National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336448
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 814

      @eathartist:

      I don’t think that you quite understand the US position.

      International law applies only to other countries, especially to

      those which do not adhere and bow down to US mandates. Some

      like Israel (AIPAC) or GB (MI6) would never dare to influence

      our elections. And it is unpatriotic to disbelieve NYT or CNN,

      because they have no “agenda” other than to make sure by

      endless repetition for our own “good” to accept their “news”.

      The Dems insist that we have to hate Russia (Putin), the GOP

      insists that we hate China (Xi), and all of them insist that we

      have to stop Iran and Venezuela. If you ask for proof or

      evidence of certain assertions you are just un-American.

      I hope that I have cleared this a bit up for you.

    • #336463
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,091

      People here dislike Bernie for completely different reasons than those at SV.  I disagree with both groups.  I respect Bernie, but as Bernie himself said, Bernie cannot tell me who to vote for.   Or what to believe about Russia.  I don’t even care about Russia.    As a side note – those emails showed me just why my opinion that the DNC is corrupt and I should not vote for it is the correct opinion.   For me.

      Also – there is a big difference between “influencing” and “interfering” with elections.  I doubt that Russia had any real influence, much less “interfered with” the election.  Unless not enthusiastically shilling for Hillary is the new definition for “interfering” with the election.  Influencing elections is a world-wide thing – and the US is, IMO, the very worst – the hacking, overturning, bloody regime change very worst.  So whinging about some Facebook ads seems juvenile.  FFS, we proudly boast about getting Yeltsin elected – which was bad, IMO for Russia, but good for us.   The CIA literally set up groups to monitor all the candidates in the French election.  Obama favored Macron – corporate, austerity inflicting Macron.  No one blinked an eye about that.  Obama went to the UK personally in order to speak against the Brexit.  Same thing.  So my outrage meter remains immovable.

      I am not even sure what the whinging about Russia is supposed to accomplish – some sort of idiotic “I’ll show Putin!!!!  I will vote for a Vichy Dem who loves war and austerity and is against health care for all!  That’s teach Putin a lesson!”.  That would be stupid, IMO, considering who Hillary is, what she has done, and what she would likely do.  Same goes for Biden and the rest of that pack.  I guess I am not as vindictive as, say, Hillary Clinton.

      This is not “whataboutism”, this is “frame of reference”.  Or something like lawyers citing previous cases and opinions .

      Finally – every day I am happy Hillary lost.  If that is due to some Facebook ads, then wonderful!

    • #336468
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 814

      @peacecorps:

      I am an adult and have long outgrown “Simon says”.

    • #336472
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,040

      in another country. That is true whether I live in country A or Country B. It is not a complicated idea as you may agree. More complicated would be ‘it is OK for country A to do it, but not country B. Or vice versa.’

      I understand that it is common to use grade school playground logic of ‘you hit me first’ or ‘you did it first’ or ‘you started it’ or ‘I was just retaliating for what you did’. All are common in modern diplomacy where right and wrong matter much less than ‘whataboutism’.

      They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336479
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 14,635

      @peacecorps Russiagate was a hoax. Russian bounties are a hoax. John Bolton and Joe Biden are warmongers. Most Crimeans do prefer to be part of Russia because they are ethnic Russians. Obama was trying to wrest control of the Sevastopol naval base from Russia.

      Why don’t Democrats attack Trump every day for his tax cuts? They hurt themselves by the Russia nonsense and the warmongering.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #336492
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,022

      They are just fine with his rich man’s tax cuts because they think all corporate giveaways are just dandy.

      The various Russiagates are distraction issues so people won’t notice this fact.

    • #336495
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,040

      Chechen independence was crushed by the Russian military. What if ‘most Crimeans Chechens prefer NOT to be a part of Russia because they are NOT ethnic Russians”? Is a referendum forthcoming? Or does that just happen when the big, powerful country wants one.

      “Most Crimeans do prefer to be part of Russia because they are ethnic Russians.” True and fair enough. The fact that Stalin ethnically cleansed Crimea in 1944 of its original inhabitants and moved in ethnic Russians is not the fault of the people who live there today.

      Does that mean that the Baltic states are right to worry about the Russian military? They each of areas that are predominantly ethnic Russians. Or are they lucky that they do not have a big Russian military base left over from the Soviet days? I doubt they can stand up to the Russian military anymore than Ukraine could.

      “Russiagate was a hoax. Russian bounties are a hoax. … Obama was trying to wrest control of the Sevastopol naval base from Russia.”

      This sounds like it comes straight from RT – or the White House. Does one have to be pro-Russia to be a progressive? I don’t think so. I did not post the OP but did feel free to respond to it.

      They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336533
      Maedhros
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 665

      I keep asking this question, but nobody can show me any evidence of it and every single allegation made has been debunked.

      The closest anyone can get is to refer to the $44,000 spend by the Internet Research Agency on Facebook ads that were both pro-Trump and pro-Clinton.  Aside from the fact that $44,000 represents a vanishingly tiny micro-fraction of money spent by the two candidates’ campaigns (and thus had no effect on the outcome of the election), there is no evidence that the IRA acted on behalf of the Russian Government or that it was anything other than a click-bait marketing endeavor.

      Every other allegation has been shown to be evidence-free.

       

      His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
      but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
      and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
      more deadly than his right had been.

      • #336575
        MistaP
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,609

        they can’t even make ALLEGATIONS, let alone prove them

        first it’s “Russia hacked Clinton’s emails,” then you point out the DNCleaks were obviously picked by someone with insider knowledge no FSB agent could have and CrowdStrike and Guccifer 2.0 are dodgy AF; then they pivot to “the Trump Tower meeting!” (too bad that was set up by the Russian outfit that tricked Clinton into hiring them to dig up manufacture dirt on Trump); then they pivot to IRA memes of Jesus wrestling Satan (literally God’s DA), but there’s that issue of “not having any ties to the government”; so then they pivot to … the DNCleaks and it all starts over again like something out of Dante

        it’s been 4 years of “a big burly Cossack shit my bed and squat-danced out the window and if you ask to see any evidence you’re a bed-pooping Cossack too”

    • #336538
      MistaP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,609

      yes, the one thing Russia WASN’T accused of doing 2016, directly altering votes

    • #336541
      Yanath
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,342

      @peacecorps

      is that it is none of your damned business.

      Most of the current problems there wouldn’t exist, if it hadn’t been for aggressions by western empires. Let the people who have a stake in that region of the world, work things out.

      Keep right on pretending along with most of your fellow citizens, that your own country’s political power system isn’t attempting to compete economically with military agression, and that it isn’t cause of most of the world’s geopolitical problems right now.

    • #336564
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 14,635

      Both of those regions are well within the Russian sphere of influence, by any measure, and the Russians did the world a favor by crushing a bunch of religious fanatics in Chechnya.


      @peacecorps
      I don’t care about that any more than the Russian government cares about Mexico or Puerto Rico. It’s called Realpolitik. It avoids risking nuclear war by fucking with another nuclear power in what they consider, with justification, to be their front yard. Are you willing to die for Ukraine or for giving NATO control of Sevastopol or for Chechens who would execute you for heresy if they could?

      If not, don’t advocate for a foreign policy that does.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #336568
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 14,635

      @maedhros I guess Truth just isn’t as much fun as seeing nefarious conspiracies where none exist.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #336570
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 774

      This applies the the UNITed States Military as they are just like the state side police but much more deadly for the time being. Our being the “good cops”in vietnam worked so well for the people of Vietnam Cambodia and Laos. Our being the “good cop In Indonesia, Hati,Panama, Columbia,Bolivia Iraq Iran Afghanistan, syria, Yugoslavia, Libya and on and on. I have a real issue when Americans think they have the right to decide for other countries what kind of country they will have! My guess is native Americans would have liked a choice and guess what they didn’t get one. Nor did the African slaves get a choice, or the Chinese or Pols. We have fucked up every time we play world policeman the world do gooder. I would like a choice in the kind of country I live in but I do not want Italy to come in a decide what is good for us with their cops. I have to laugh at the belly aching about the Baltic states It sounds like you have been listening to Rachel, sound familiar
      We have had our fingers all over every country surrounding Russia, yet we ignore the atrocious state that we have left the Americas in including our own.

      Earthartist

      • #336581
        MistaP
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,609

        Greece, Italy, Syria, Iran, Laos, Guyana, Guatemala, Lebanon, Cuba, the Congo, Indonesia, Brazil, the Dominican Republic, Vietnam, Cambodia, Bolivia, Chile, Bangladesh, East Timor, Chad, Afghanistan, Angola, Mozambique, the Philippines, Turkey, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Panama, Iraq, Russia, Venezuela, Georgia, Honduras, Yemen, Libya, and Ukraine–every one of them was about stamping out any hallucinated whiff of borscht

        if only the neocons had a snazzy logo (fun fact, the swastika’s a flint fire-striker that you spin on a twisted cord), maybe someone would cold-cock Bolton and Haspel and Negroponte as they wamble in and out of their limos

    • #336573
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,604

      @yanath
      Do not have healthcare, a living wage, a reliable home, a government they can trust, or a real sense that there is hope for the future.  Some of us know a bit of history – a lot of us don’t.  A whole lot of people work their asses off for most of their lives – and don’t bother with the larger issues – because they do not think they can do anything about them.  Yes, our political power system IS terrible, it is doing precisely what you say it is.  Most of us do not know enough to understand that – let alone to try to do anything about it.  Our public education is failing, our universities (certainly the private ones, at least) are more concerned with profit than with learning.  Even our medical/healthcare system revolves around profit.

      So, yes, we definitely have our issues and our flaws.  You can argue that it is the responsibility of each individual to educate themselves and act accordingly – but not everyone can.  Those in power also do not want us to.  This is why public education is so terribly funded, it is why we do not have a functional healthcare or welfare system, it is why our infrastructure is falling apart.  It is why the people who raced to the moon… now beg for scraps.

      You are right – but my fellow citizens are not the great evil in this.  Those who make the decisions – and rule most if not all Nations, are billionaires, corporations, firms – and they control trillions of dollars in international funding.  They are very few – but they absolutely influence all of Europe, Russia, China – and every other major Nation.

      Plenty of us American citizens hate all of this as much as you do.  We are trying – but we are losing the battle.

    • #336607
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,040

      “who would execute you for heresy if they could”. (Yes, the scary Muslims. I have heard it before.) They deserve to be crushed by the big power whose ‘sphere of influence’ they are within. I guess ‘realpolitik’ as Kissinger used to call it never goes out of fashion. Special rules for the big, powerful countries. You seem to ‘care’ about ethnic Russians in Crimea (good, hard-working, honest and peaceful people) but not Chechens who are fundamentally undeserving of ‘care’.

      And me criticizing Russian actions is not going to bring on nuclear war any more than a Russian citizen criticizing American government actions will. The whole “if you criticize my country you are a warmonger” is old and tired. How are anyone criticize North Korea or Pakistan or India or Russia! Do you want nuclear war?

      They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336621
      MistaP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,609
    • #336656
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 814

      @peacecorps:

      Nobody asks you to be pro Russian, just to produce clear

      evidence that it interfered. However, since you go back to

      Chechnia in your post, let’s look on who broke the agreement

      between BushI and Gorbachov and Genscher that NATO would

      not move one inch further East than the German border. The transcripts

      about that came only out in 17 at the University of Maryland and the

      media naturally did not report it. Just as “I feel your pain”Clinton did

      that he also – with great help of the CIA – bombed Yugoslavia, or rather

      the Serbs. The problem with all of this is that facts and evidence are

      either hidden, obscured or revealed 20-30 years later when the public

      does not care about it anymore. The Russia-gate I and II have achieved

      just what Casey had in mind, namely misinformation and scapegoating

      are accepted by the general public as facts. So was the story of the

      Tonkin strait as well as the WMDs. The interesting part is that some of

      us have learned the lessons and distrust the “news” coming from the

      operation Mockingbird infested media.

    • #336664
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 14,635

      @peacecorps And your virtue-signaling. Oh, how liberals must always feel more virtuous and moral. Whatever.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #336671
      Babel 17
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,393
    • #336691
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,741

      Posting anti-Clinton and pro-Trump stuff on social media is an attempt at influencing–however there is no conceivable way to quantitate the degree of its effectiveness.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #336696
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,812

      Why is it any of the US’s business if chechens get a referendum on independence?

      It’s no business of russia’s if DC gets a referendum on becoming a state, or if any of the small ‘independence ‘ movements in the US get to vote on it, so why is it ours in russia?

      seems like a really bad example to me.

      • #336728
        peacecorps
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,040

        Chechens are human beings just like Crimeans and you and I. The fact that they are thousands of miles from me does not temper my concern for people and their human rights.

        They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

        National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336724
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,040

      Bad is bad.

      They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336727
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,040

      in Bosnia? Should the world always ignore war crimes? Should the world have done something different about it? Rwanda?

      “… distrust the “news” coming from the operation Mockingbird infested media.”

      We all do. But I don’t want to see the left go as far as the right in distrusting (in their eyes) the ‘liberal’ media. They are not going to believe in climate change, Covid science, and others no matter what they read or watch. The ‘liberal’ media cannot be trusted. They are comfortable ‘knowing’ what the ‘know’. (Of course, they only watch FOX and listen to RW talk radio so there is not much danger of them being challenged in their beliefs.) Their minds are closed.

      They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #336745
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,604

      And I wonder what the journalists of decades prior would have thought.  Infiltrated by the CIA, propagandized by the various “intelligence” agencies, actually weaponized for the intents and purposes of various hawkish politicians.  We have had (and still have) great journalists in the U.S. – writers of great talent and even investigative skill.  The problem is, they are very limited as to what corporations they can work for.  So a lot go their own way and make blogs on the internet – but know little to nothing about website promotion, so are read by very few.

      We know what Fox news is – we know what MSNBC is.  They don’t usually lie outright about the facts – they twist them to fit a specific political, financial, or foreign policy agenda – usually dictated by someone with millions or billions of dollars.  Maddow gets ten million a year for her show.  I don’t know what Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity get, but I assume its a lot.  Joy Reid?  I don’t watch it much anymore unless I’m visiting my Father who always has it on – but a majority of it is NOT reliable.  The government, powers that be and so on have always tried to weaponize the media – the difference is that, in decades past, there was more regulation as to private and/or state influence.

      So, while we debate Russiagate, the important stories – the god damn stories that matter, tend to go untold.  No, its all about Russiagate, the latest feud between Trump and Pelosi, Trump and Fauci, Trump and reality…

      It can be an honorable calling – to discover and share the facts, such as we understand them to be.  It is NOT an honorable thing to use it to promote propaganda or war.  To claim constant propaganda and allegations as fact when they are not.  Still, I doubt they give a fuck what I think – those talking heads?  They’re all rich.  If they say that “Russia”, or the big scary GRU put a bounty on American soldiers, a whole lot of people swallow it whole without stopping to ask – what if it isn’t true?  Weapons of mass destruction, chemical weapon attacks in Syria, operation Timber Sycamore, year after year, war after war, one god damn mess after another.

      We wonder about polarization, civility in politics, why the divide has grown so extreme between the left and the right?  You know, I think I have a pretty good idea of how all that shit happened.

    • #336782
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,022

      .. It  doesn’t mean they had anything to do with our election or the Taliban.

      One thing doesn’t have anything to do with the other.

    • #336865
      chknltl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,043

      …for ten cents on the dollar I could invest in this or that faction within our media.

      For an additional ten cents on the dollar I could purchase a political faction.

      Yes, it would take quite a few dollars invested all at once but for my twenty cents on the dollar I could reap a hefty bounty indeed!

      So if I were a rich man….hmmm … da-da-da-da-da- daaa*(1)

      …I think I would like to own a hat company.

      My hat company would make hats that have a little propeller on top of it with a string one would pull to make it twirl.

      I would spend my ten cents on the dollar to get my faction of politicians to pass legislation to construct my hats for me because “reliable sources” have informed them in closed door meetings that my hats will prevent space invaders from probing peoples’ brains.

      I would invest my other ten cents on the dollar to have my faction of the media run around with their hair on fire warning their viewers about alien mind invasions.

      Incredibly, not only would I make a killing selling my hats with the little propellers on them but congress, (remember my bought n paid for politicians?), would eagerly pass legislation to pay ME from YOUR taxes thirty cents on the dollar to make those hats!!!

      Buahahaha!*(2)

      NO and a thousand times NO, this is not a statement about how our media and our politicians are bought out by big moneyed interests.

      This is just about my making a pile of money off of hats here in the good ol’ U.S.A.

      If I were a rich man da-da-da-da-da-da daaaa……

      #1 (*Didn’t Zorba the Greek sing ‘If I Were A Rich Man’ while drunk? That’s where the da-da-da-da-das came from above)

      #2 (If I need to explain to you what this has to do with Russiagate and pretty much everything else wrong with our dealings nationally and internationally, well one of us has missed the point).

       

    • #336943
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,812

      @peacecorps

      So many hurting people in the world and so many crimes of power, perhaps we’d do better to first deal with the war crimes WE COMMIT, rather than reach over to other countries first & say we have the obligation to deal with theirs.

      Especially when any thinking person KNOWS there is a POLITICAL MOTIVATION in NOT DEALING WITH OUR OWN, and also WITH MESSING ABOUT WITH OTHER STATES SUPPOSED ‘ERRORS’.

      I assumed you’d know that basic fact.

      The US could spend years trying to fix the damage it’s done to innocent parties and barely scratch the surface of its crimes.

      The biggest powers are usually the biggest criminals with the most ability to ‘spin’ their crimes.

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