The Value of Profit

Homepage | Forums | Main Forums | General Discussion | The Value of Profit

  • Author
    Posts
  • #44493

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,137
    @davidthegnome

    What’s that you say?  A redundant title?

    I’d like to discuss, a little bit, just what it all means.  You know, the big central “capitalist” system and the ultimate motivator once the restraints have been lifted.  For instance, how many of you heard Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez discuss exactly what you can do, in congress?  Is insider trading forbidden?  Well, no.  Is it forbidden to run for and achieve office for the sake of enriching this or that corporation?  Nope.  Can you get very, very wealthy thanks to lobbyists and corporate influence?  Absolutely.  Is there a limit, anymore?  Nope.  Welcome to the brave new era of Citizens United.  Not that it was ever clean or really genuinely fair – but the abuses of the ruling class have gone quite far.  Further than even our old monarchs of England dared to go.

    As a theory…. “an economic and political system in which a country’s trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit, rather than by the state.”  That is the barebones of capitalism.  The problem is that private and public have become so intertwined that they cannot be separated without a complete meltdown of the system.  That near disaster has already struck several times – and it has not been solved.  Band aids have been used.  When the financial industry/mortgage lenders/banks, etc. caused a global economic meltdown… in this land of unrestrained capitalism, the tax dollars of all of our citizens were used to bail out these massive corporations.  You could argue “they paid the money back!”  The truth is, though… that they only took more – when heads should have rolled – and instead, the government more or less mortgaged the Country to rescue those idiots who caused the problem in the first place… then empowered them further with subsidy and politically appointed position…

    Subsidies, for the oil companies, for the “manufacturers” like Nike, Amazon, Walmart.  Subsidies for private prisons!  Charter schools!  Religious institutions!  Subsidies for billionaires, 2 trillion in tax cuts!  The corporate tax rate continuously reduced as corporate profit grows to astounding levels!  Trickle down economics – and so on and so forth.  So, when this wild man, this white haired, whacky old “socialist” (RUN!) dude starts talking about things like universal healthcare, tuition and so on – when others go so far as to suggest (even just to suggest) something like a universal basic income… the outcry from much of the public and from our noble saviors in the wealthy class is quite severe.

    I don’t know if you all have noticed, but they own everything.  “They” are those in the wealthy, famous, enormously (and truly) entitled class who see their tax rates continuing to fall, who have the best healthcare in the world, who can drop ten grand like you or I might spend a dollar.  They speak of hard work, public service, of being friends to the American people – they are lying through their teeth.  They own the media.  They own education (case in point, check out no child left behind, race to the top, even things like Michelle Obama’s “nutritional school lunch” program) they own regulation.  The banks.  The medicines.  The hospitals.  Even the councils of most towns and cities.

    Capitalism in theory wasn’t a bad idea – it worked at one point – because it was regulated with considerable force.  As the regulations have disappeared, the focus on social freedom has grown (see social justice warriors definition on wiki) – while economic inequality grows to levels not witnessed since the feudal era.  We are instructed, trained, taught from very early on that education=job=money.  That, the way to get ahead in life, is to get through school, work hard – and make enough money to support ourselves and/or a family.  We are discouraged from thinking outside of that box.  We are considered… well, let’s face it, we are considered weirdos, cave people – and such, if we abandon such a system in favor of living off the land.  Most of us see the Amish as being quite odd, right?  What about that quack you know that built their own shelter?

    Those who rebel against the system, in one way or another, are made into pariahs.  Maybe they really ARE dooms day type survivalist preppers.  Maybe some of them are cultists.  Maybe some are so nutty they’ll shoot you just for looking at them funny.  On the other hand – there is growth, as well, in the movement of your ordinary citizens, to smaller, community based living.  Such is an argument against capitalism in practice.  In practice, it demands constant, endless growth.  Of people, of jobs, of numbers most especially.  All these numbers that do not exist in hard currency.  Trillions in debt, you say?  What have we got for collateral?  Hmm.  Considering that the amount is fake – can it be paid back with fake money?  Monopoly…

    Before I even get started on monopoly – I would like to conclude that the problem is not that people are not angry or worried enough.  I do not believe, either, that most of us are ignorant to many of society’s deeper issues.  I believe what is generally lacked is a true resolution – and the nerve to propose such.  So called democrats and republicans will strangle the green new deal in it’s infancy.  That began as soon as it was proposed.  The war games, the looting – all of these things will continue, despite the intentions of people like Sanders, Cortez, Gabbard and so on – because they can only go so far.

    Change comes only when we make it…. and to do so, we’ve all got to get up, get together, start talking, thinking, dancing and who knows what else.  Like the sixties, only bigger.  I don’t mean a sexual revolution – that one already happened.  I mean a global economic revolution in which we re-define what things like “profit” and “wealth” actually mean.  To be a severely rich person who gives naught of themselves is to be a parasite, a leach, an ultimately useless member of society who contributes nothing if not forced.  Is that wealth?  Is that profitable?

    The greatest of all profit…. comes from the simplest of all toil.  Simple in terms of what must be done – not in terms of actually doing it.  Grow things, build solar panels, windmills, break up and ultimately reduce these massive, global conglomerates, force through law a fair tax system.  Force through law a greater measure of economic and social equality.  One does not come without the other.  Period.

    So what is the value of profit?  As it is often defined today… I would have to say… not much.  If we consider, though, that words have meaning – and that ultimately the meaning of these words has been twisted…

    What is valuable is growing food and medicine.  Building homes.  Cleaning up messes.  Gathering clean drinking water.  Putting solar panels on roofs.  Teaching children so that one day their generation will surpass ours.  The profit is seen in the better world created by such.  What is valuable is the notion that, through generosity, through sharing, we build a greater and not a lesser economy, which is ultimately how we profit.

    But, you know, maybe this is all just the inane rambling of a mind gone off the rails.  Still, I think that how many of us see things, how we are taught… our deepest ideas about profit/value/worth… are twisted.  Not because we chose it as such – but because government, media, even education… have been working for a long time to create a brave new world.  They have very nearly succeeded completely.  This is when the breaking point comes…. soon, I think.

  • #44501

    GZeusH
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,364
    @gzeush

    Twisted into allowing our Ferengi overlords to continue.   Star Trek had plenty of social commentary out among the stars — they had the violent imperialist race, the Klingons; they had the bureaucratic race, the Cardassians; they had the ultimate capitalists, the Ferengi.  But what do you get when you combine the worst traits of each?  Good old modern day Americans.

    • #44543

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,331
      @ohiobarbarian

      Science fiction is never about the future. It is about the present.–Ursula K. LeGuin

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #44505

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,137
    @davidthegnome

    @gzeush

    You know, when it comes down to it – I think the solutions really are simple.  Just have to get the proper motivator.  If people start getting together like they did in the sixties – only, well, on a far greater scale…

    We are too apart from one another these days.  In this age of mass, global communication, I think people are more lonely than ever.  I say this as someone who is diagnosed as agoraphobic, with social anxiety disorder, general anxiety disorder and so on and so forth.  Yeah, severely neurotic and whatnot.  Still, I would be surprised if there are not millions more like me that are just undiagnosed (in addition to the millions that are).  It’s like… we each live within our own spheres, our own circles.  If something happens that upsets that – if another person invades the bubbles we build around ourselves and our lives… well, the natural reaction is not to be happy about it.

    Still, maybe that’s what we need to do.  Precisely what we need.  Start talking to our neighbors again, reconnect with family and friends, less time on the box and more in face to face conversation – and action.  Good ideas, right?  Now, am I going to go do them?  No… Why?  Because the truth is that I’m too damn scared to try.  I have no idea what my next day might bring, I cannot trust the lucidity, the rationality of my own mind.  In general, I cannot trust myself.  If I don’t take my medications I get REALLY fun.  Not in a mean, violent type of way, more in a “Holy shit, that speck of dust is terrifying!” type of way.

    Sorry.  I can preach this shit all day long, but doing something… I am more likely to search for a big rock to crawl under.

    • #44571

      jbnw
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 501
      @jbnw

      In the 60s we had news coverage and investigative journalism.  Now we have entertainment.

      • #44889

        Enthusiast
        Donor
        • Total Posts: 2,597
        @enthusiast

        If it’s entertainment it isn’t very entertaining.

        I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

        Me

  • #44509

    Ohio Barbarian
    Moderator
    • Total Posts: 6,331
    @ohiobarbarian

    Great, thoughtful post. I’ll try to get back to it later. Recommended for the Daily Radical.

    We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

  • #44510

    Enthusiast
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 2,597
    @enthusiast

    These MFers can’t even recognize that they have gone too far. They have gone so far too far that they have arranged for the entire government structure to serve them exclusively while simultaneously abusing the fuck out of the rest of us. It isn’t at all uncommon for one of these MFers to go on and on about how we have it too good.

    I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

    Me

    • #44513

      jwirr
      Member
      • Total Posts: 672
      @jwirr

      Speaking of going too far – headline this morning says Rump is going to challenge the whole ACA in court. Let him try. There will be no greater incentive for enacting Medicare for All even if it has to be done state by state.

      jwirr

  • #44516

    ThouArtThat
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,152
    @thouartthat

    Breaking Point?

    The breaking point won’t be economic it will be climate change as an exogenous variable outside capitalism.

    Within capitalism, endogenous variables like rising wealth inequality, falling longevity and higher infant mortality matter not to the 1%.  Why? Simple.  Their wealth combined with technology makes it possible to become ever wealthier with fewer and fewer people.  So, if the Global Company Store (aka capitalism) loses a few serfs along the way no matter.

    What breaks this cycle is something that the Global Company Store cannot control.  Sure, the 1% can build bunkers with finite stockpiles.  However, what they cannot control is the loss of fertility as food production diminishes with rising global heat.  Eventually, grain production becomes insignificant and their supplies will only last so long.  What is also beyond their control are angry mobs left destitute by capitalism’s excess.   And in these transitions, many of the excess class will lose their lives either through starvation or terror.

    The 1% seem to know this as it explains their actions to date – steal everything not locked down and hope for the best.  It is the 99% that appear clueless.  Some still believe that existing institutions will engender some sanity as the Global Company Store rumbles out of control.  Some place their hope in ephemeral gods and goddesses that religions are all too willing to embrace.  Some are dumbstruck and numbed to inaction and complacency.  Some relish forthcoming chaos as their inherent mindset is one of death and destruction.  In other words, the 1% are relatively organized while the proles are maddeningly scattered and distracted.

    For those that wish to forestall or mitigate these outcomes a sobering assessment is necessary combined with a will to action far beyond anything seen to date from the 99%.  What we know with high certainty is a future well past a 2C rise in global average temperature.  This is already locked in for two reasons: temperature will rise another 0.5 to 1.0C with carbon already emitted but yet to manifest as heat and the global dimming effect which will raise temperature another 0.5 to 1.0C as fossil fuel use declines with pollution aerosols dropping from the atmosphere.  So, considering no other feedback loops or under reported emissions we are looking at a 2.2C to 3.2C future regardless.

    The reality for the 7.5 billion inhabitants of planet earth today is one that few are willing to recognize or accept.  The only path forward for all of us is destruction of the Global Company Store and a transition to zero growth economics.  In essence, that means average western citizens will have to accept a reduction in life style and living standards.  Either we voluntarily reduce our CO2 emissions or mother nature will force the situation.  Given human behavior this seems all but impossible and highly unlikely as our DNA is encoded with greed, fear and denial.  Will enough of the 99% wake up to reality; time will tell.

    What is also true is that wishful thinking now sold as “green energy” will not enable western industrial societies to continue.  Why?  Simply because additional CO2 emission and resource reductions will not support a western lifestyle for 7.5 billion humans.  In other words, installing solar panels and wind turbines are at best a mitigation component of some zero economic growth future, not the central theme.  A future for all present 7.5 billion human inhabitants looks much simpler as each citizen has a drastically reduced carbon emission footprint to keep global average temperatures from exceeding what is already locked into place.

    The choices are becoming clear, a future for everyone or a future for a few.  History suggests which choice will be made.

     

    "They must find it difficult ... Those who have taken authority as the truth,
    Rather than truth as the authority."
    - Gerald Massey

    "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
    - Jiddu Krishnamurti

    “Wisdom tells me I am nothing.  Love tells me I am everything. And between the two my life flows."
    - Nisargadatta Maharaj

    • #44541

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,331
      @ohiobarbarian

      You really, really should make an OP out of that most excellent reply.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

    • #44648

      GZeusH
      Member
      • Total Posts: 1,364
      @gzeush

      The breaking point will be when the 1% can’t or won’t feed the army that they need to protect themselves.  Cops will be less likely to crack heads and snuff out Occupy movements when they have to go home hungry afterwards.

      Take a look at some of the areas of sub-Saharan Africa where there are too many people, not enough food, and guns galore.  A war lord is only in power as long as he can continue to find spoils to share with his army.  Needless to say, in such an environment a farmer can’t plant and harvest crops and then bring them to a market to exchange for other items of value.

  • #44520

    PolecatHollerer
    Member
    • Total Posts: 599
    @polecathollerer

    Heartily recommended.

    If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

  • #44521

    closeupready
    Member
    • Total Posts: 615
    @closeupready

    Further than even our old monarchs of England dared to go.

    On that colonial note:

    Irony is a couple days ago, noting a car with plates from D.C., tagline “Taxation Without Representation”.  Yes, D.C.  This is exactly the arrangement you and your coterie of crooks are enjoying with hardworking American people.

    The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

  • #44523

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,137
    @davidthegnome

    @thouartthat

    I can’t argue with that, I don’t even really want to try.  You know, a lot of what you say breaks all kinds of social rules – even more than I regularly break – but you are right.  The truth is, like many people, I think the future holds… more suffering than humanity – and the world has ever known.  The question of whether or not we can do something about it… whether we will even try…

    The green new deal, which many insist does not go far enough – will be squashed.  It has already been made a matter of hilarity for our “representatives” in the House and Senate.  “Oh sure, I support the green dream whatever”.  Better than nothing, I think – but dead on arrival.  Plenty of so called “moderates” joining in with republicans to crush it.  Yeah, the evidence, history – and much else suggests to me that you are correct in your assessment of what is likely.  Some days I feel like I’ve got to DO something, now!  Yesterday!  Save the world!  Then I post something like this on facebook – and out of my hundred or so friends, often no one responds at all.  That’s the truth.

    No, we probably will not act.  Yet, if we did, perhaps it might not be too late, not yet, to reduce the impact.

    A cynical part of my mind whispers to me that the global oligarchy will destroy anything that has a genuine chance of succeeding in any event.

    • #44549

      ThouArtThat
      Member
      • Total Posts: 1,152
      @thouartthat

      @davidthegnome

      Hi David,

      All would like to believe that our political and social institutions are resilient and responsive enough to meet current challenges.  Yet we also know that in the face of the all-consuming Global Company Store, all of  our institutions have failed us.  The time for mourning, pearl clutching and kibitzing about that fact is over.  We can only wallow in self-pity so long.

      We can do something and that something is massive, global, non-violent resistance.  Anything less will not be sufficient to mount a challenge to the Global Company Store.  Along those lines, the only effort speaking in these terms is the Extinction Rebellion movement.  It was started last year by academics in the UK that realized all efforts at internal system reform have failed.  Elections no longer matter, letters to the editor no longer matter, imploring elected officials no longer matters, one shot demonstrations no longer matter.  All is ignored by the Global Company Store.

      Extinction Rebellion set out to organize a resistance that brings governments and economics to its knees.  They studied past successful movements and have captured those success in their organizing efforts.  The plan is simple, organize continuing and ongoing non-violent protests in the major capitals worldwide.  They are recruiting those willing to be arrested for the cause and plan to replace the fallen with new sitters to maintain the vigil.  And unlike the Occupy movement, they have clear cut demands.

      1. Governments must publicly recognize and acknowledge the severity and extent of climate change.
      2. Governments must commit to a zero CO2 emission world by 2025.
      3. Governments must enable and accept a citizens assembly outside of established institutions to address and implement binding solutions.

      Their first global action is scheduled for April 15, 2019.

      Moving forward, taking matters into our own hands is the only type of effort with a possibility of success.  Anything less that relies on failed and failing political and social institutions only leads to more incrementalism.  So, we do have choices and the question is will we exercise those options.

       

      "They must find it difficult ... Those who have taken authority as the truth,
      Rather than truth as the authority."
      - Gerald Massey

      "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
      - Jiddu Krishnamurti

      “Wisdom tells me I am nothing.  Love tells me I am everything. And between the two my life flows."
      - Nisargadatta Maharaj

  • #44569

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,137
    @davidthegnome

    @thouartthat

    You mean this group? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/climate-change-extinction-rebellion-fake-blood-protest-downing-street-a8815511.html

    I’m sorry, but what exactly are they accomplishing beyond making a mess for someone else to clean up?  Thousands, tens of thousands.  Remember the Iraq war protests?  Millions, right?  Remember occupy?  What difference did they make?  The extinction rebellion will though?  How?  In a Country that generally speaking, when it comes right down to it, holds environmentalists in a special sort of contempt.  “Damn tree huggers”.  Do you really think that anyone is going to take them seriously?  I already don’t – if they were serious, they would not be spilling fake blood on the street.  They’d be throwing it on congress members.

    As for non-violent resistance… maybe.  If it were several decades ago.  In this era… no, they’ll send in the militarized police to break heads.  Hell, take it far enough (not very far at all) and they’ll start shooting – and who is going to pull themselves away from facebook, or JPR, or their video games, or television, or what have you… to actually do something about it?  What was the result, even, of the DAPL protests?  It is safe to say – in agreement with this group – that yes, our institutions have failed.

    Honestly, I think at this point that it is more likely that our ticket is punched.  The clock ticks ever closer to doomsday – and our expiration date, if not precisely known, is set for, most likely, within my lifetime or that of my son’s.  It’s not self pity – it’s pity for the generations (if any) that will come after my own, that will likely have to rebuild everything previous generations destroyed in ignorance and greed.  Maybe.  If enough survive.

    Nope.  There are not enough of us that give enough of a damn to fix it.  Every institution has failed – and people in general will acknowledge that a day after the Pope becomes a Muslim.  Everything I’ve been talking about is silly, pointless.  It’s stupid.  None of this shit is going to work.  Misanthropy?  What difference does it make?  Hell, what difference does any of this really make?  Oblivion is our destiny.  I’m tired.  No, I’m exhausted.  Trying to find some way to cope, to live with the human condition, with my condition – and I am way too tired to let you keep condescending to me.

    Yeah, I get it.  I tell you what, while you wait for the extinction rebellion and idiots like me wait for the 60s to come back, maybe we’ll get lucky and some alien species will decide to vaporize us.  Hell, we’ve wiped out so much life on this planet, it may as well be our turn.  And what good, to keep us around anyway?  We are not intelligent enough, enlightened enough, kind enough or wise enough to be caretakers of this Earth or any other.  That’s the truth.

    I’m sure there will be protest zones and buckets of fake blood.  All of which will make about as much difference as you and I talking about it here.

    • #44585

      ravensong
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 811
      @ravensong

      Occupy is largely responsible for Bernie Sanders being the the most popular politician in the US, and for the possibility that he may be our next POTUS.  Occupy is largely responsible for AOC being elected and getting the message out.

      Cowards never change anything but the channels on their TV.

       

      Promote Freedom From Religion, and Separation of Church and State. When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross.

      Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues! ~ Bernie

  • #44582

    ravensong
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 811
    @ravensong

    Agree. The only effective way to neutralize and quarantine the evil ones is to beggar them by cutting off their sources of profits through active, focused non-participation, focused non-violent resistance, and establishing non-destructive sustainable alternative systems.

    This rigged game will never end unless we stop playing.  They will never stop destroying everything until we stop them from destroying everything.  And we have to do it soon.

    Promote Freedom From Religion, and Separation of Church and State. When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross.

    Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues! ~ Bernie

  • #44605

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,137
    @davidthegnome

    I’m sorry – but what Occupy really did was demonstrate the futility of resistance.  There were passionate, brave, decent people involved – and if we had enough such in government it might have been a different story.

    Bernie is one individual – among a pretty small group with the will to get things done.  What happened in 2016 – or something quite similar, is likely to happen again, in 2020.

    You speak of cowards changing channels on television – I see children that think spilling fake blood in the street is somehow going to make a difference to anyone but those end up cleaning it.

    Real change requires real effort.  In a Country of over three hundred million, that calls for tens of millions, at least.  That is how they made a difference in the 60s.

    It is further… entirely likely that any non violent protest will be met with violent reaction.  A few days later, it will have been forgotten, as there will be new atrocities from the media.

    Either the masses do something, or nothing happens.  A few hundred thousand – or even a few million – are not enough, not anymore.  Not when tens of millions happily voted for Trump.

    Plenty of people legitimately want to burn it all down.

  • #44636

    ravensong
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 811
    @ravensong

    I’m sorry, but that’s a very ignorant, naive view of how real constructive change occurs, and the time, effort, and sacrifice on the part of real people in real action that it takes to bring about change. Every successful movement for constructive change takes a great deal of time and effort.  It does not happen overnight.

    So you may want it, and want it now, but that’s just not how constructive change comes about in reality. If you don’t see that Arab Spring and Occupy changed the consciousness of our nation and the world, you’re not paying attention.

    I was actually there in the 60’s, at the WTO protests, Iraq War protests, and start to finish with Occupy. People who engage in direct action are the ones who act as catalysts to bring about eventual constructive change.  Our detractors, not so much.

    So, anyway, who should we believe, you, or Bernie Sanders?

    “I think what the protesters are doing in New York, and across the country, is extremely important….It is absolutely appropriate that the protesters are now forcing a debate, and the discussion in this country, on the huge issue of income and wealth inequality” ~ Bernie Sanders, 2011

    Promote Freedom From Religion, and Separation of Church and State. When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag, and carrying a cross.

    Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues! ~ Bernie

    • #44908

      David the Gnome
      Member
      • Total Posts: 1,137
      @davidthegnome

      @ravensong

      Believe who you want – it really doesn’t matter.  I like Sanders well enough – I’ll vote for him, but I don’t for a minute think we’re going to turn the tables without a mass popular uprising.  Even then – you say I am naïve for thinking change will require tens of millions?  Ignorant?  Okay – so what was the result of Occupy?  What happened after the sixties?  Everyone put away their signs and went home, that’s what happened.  Our Nation slowly devolved into what it is today (between now and the sixties).  Yes, it made a difference in regards to civil rights – but not as much as most think.  Social improvement requires economic improvement – and we – Americans as a whole – are losing that struggle – and have been for decades.

      So you were there for this and that – good for you.  I was there for the Iraq war protests – for all the good we did, even standing with veterans for peace (I am not a veteran – but they did not mind my presence) in the 10 below weather up here in the County.  Eventually there were only five or six people still standing – and pretty much everyone ignored us.

      You want to talk about the greatness of your generation?  It had the potential to be great – like every generation.  Things were moving forward in a way that, perhaps, no one had ever seen – then you all dropped the ball and went home.  I am so very used to being talked down to by those of you who were “there” for the sixties.  Guess what?  It’s 2019.  Every single democratic member of the Senate just voted “present” – except for a couple who voted against, on the green new deal.  Republicans stole 2000 and 2004 – the Clintons obliterated what welfare system we had, Bush and Obama ushered in a new police state, militarized police, mass media control, assassination programs, wars, you name it.

      Wasn’t my generation.  Not us supposedly lazy, good for nothing millennials – but the generations that came before.

      Which is not to say that mine is any better – but we aren’t any worse.  Naïve and ignorant – yes, I am used to that label from people who don’t know me.  I find it as absurd now as I did at the democratic convention in Augusta back in 2008 – when it was Clinton voters calling me that.  In my County, when we were asked who would go to the convention to support a candidate – I was the only damn person who stood up.  So many do not care anymore – and it is because they see the bull shit of modern politics.  Because they are tired of being talked down to.  Because they are tired of politicians in general.

      You think one person, even Bernie, is going to reverse decades of distrust?  You think he even can?

      A progressive government might be nice – but we are light years away from having one.  Occupy wall street occupied our attention for a while – but do you know what is more commonly occupied now?  Tents in cities – all over the Country.  I’m damned lucky I’m not living in one of them  – and one mishap could land me there.

      You really think change comes without blood?  Of all people, you ought to know better, having been there in the sixties.  Not fake blood – real blood.  It will be ours and not theirs – when it is spilled – and it will be.  Things must eventually reach a critical mass, because this economy, this current method of government cannot be sustained.  It is nothing short of a miracle that complete economic and social collapse has been held off for this long.

      Tens of millions – that is what it will take.  Anything else and we may as well put away our signs and go home – because they WILL ignore us.  Just as they did during the Iraq war and occupy protests.  What changes were made in the 60s and in the years since… you do know that they have been being obliterated by both “democrat” and “republican” governments ever since, right?

      Somehow, I find myself unimpressed by YOUR ignorance and naivete.

  • #44716

    Deadpool
    Administrator
    • Total Posts: 2,145
    @deadpool

  • #44752

    Ohio Barbarian
    Moderator
    • Total Posts: 6,331
    @ohiobarbarian

    For capitalism, the only thing that has value is profit. That’s why it’s a fundamentally inhuman and sick system. The joy of watching a sunrise or the smile of a loved one or the affection of a pet have no value for capitalism, unless those things can be turned into commodities somehow. The same goes with knowing that your kids will have at least a good a life as you; capitalism does not care, and in fact punishes, anything that gets in the way of the pursuit of profit.

    IMHO, the human species cannot survive if the one value of capitalism is allowed to dominate the decisions of those in power. Greed is not good.

    Ever read the Socratic dialogues by Plato, David? If not, I think you should. I recommend The Protagoras for starters.

    We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

    • #44911

      David the Gnome
      Member
      • Total Posts: 1,137
      @davidthegnome

      @ohiobarbarian

      I respectfully disagree – regarding capitalism as a theory, at least.  Inherently, it’s not really good or bad – but the way it is managed… in practice… is enough to turn any stomach.  On that we agree.  One thing though, that I often hear (or read) is that “It works better than anything else we’ve tried!!”  Okay, so what else have we tried?  In America?  Well, nothing, really.  In the last hundred years, Capitalism and the world that practices it has gone absolutely, stark, raving mad.

      Some of our best and brightest minds knew decades ago that constant expansion and endless growth were no longer possible.  They knew then – brilliant individuals all of them – they knew then that changes had to be made.  They weren’t.  We know now, anyone who is paying attention can see the sickness in this economy, in the government, media, hell, just flip on a radio or cable tv station.

      We can do better than capitalism, I think.  For those who say nothing else has worked as well – maybe it’s time to think up something that will work better, because this ain’t working.

      Sorry, ranting.  The Socratic dialogues… hmm… I’ll check it out.

      What’s sick, man, is that there are millions of people in this Country living in poverty, in tents, on the streets, who’s kids can’t get enough to eat.  Yet we’re twenty trillion in debt and expanding the military budget.  We can’t repair our roads, bridges, or schools.  The politicians keep talking about cutting “entitlement” programs, no one in government, in a position of authority to really do much about it, seems to be able to get a grip.  With what few honest, decent people are left in government….

      I do not think our chances of change are good.  Doesn’t mean I’m giving up – but I acknowledge the all too likely inevitability of our defeat.  I’ll accept that and keep on going anyway, I’m used to life kicking the shit out of me, but sooner or later, I get back up.  That’s what our Country has to do, en masse, a popular movement that shakes the earth when it walks together.  Anything less… and I think our ticket is punched.  Perhaps I am wrong, but I do not believe a tiny minority of any ideological persuasion can continue to hold power over the majority.  Nope… gotta have an actual democracy, social or otherwise.

      As for greed…. you know what always shocks me, even though I’ve long known it for fact?  The greediest among us are always – always – the wealthiest.  They are the people who complain the most loudly about dust on their pillows in a hotel room.  They are the people yelling at the garbage man or the plow driver for getting in their way – they are the people starting wars for oil and profit.  It’s almost never the poor.  We know shit stinks.

      Makes me think of my upbringing, the new testament and Jesus.  All rather silly, at this point, there isn’t much left that I DO believe in, beyond a basic desire to be good, to live by my principles to the extent that I can.  Miracles and shit, nah.  Not much hope anymore, man.

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.