There is no border crisis.

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    • #9845
      leftcoast mountains
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      • Total Posts: 4,850

      vote for nobody

    • #9876
      doh1304
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      • Total Posts: 1,316

      it’s far more than 800,000, and it’s more than “Trump’s government shutdown”. Of course he knows that.

    • #9914
      Vanflower
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      • Total Posts: 52
      • #9940
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 17,244

        Do you have such a reason? For me, the only crisis on the border is that we are putting refugees in concentration camps, which did start under Obama, and I was opposed to the practice then.

        Trump has simply doubled-down on the Obama policy.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

        • #10325
          Vanflower
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          • Total Posts: 52

          in his address.  he used facts and stats, the only real factual disagreement that I have seen is the heroin point of entry stats.  Have yet to see MSM criticism on the effects on the women and children being preyed upon on their way (only that CBS reported that the numbers were much higher 60-80%), human trafficker profiteers, numbers of criminal apprehended and the costs on low wage earners and wages.

          The fact is that a barrier would not stop a single immigrant from coming to a port of entry and apply for asylum.

          The fact is that the the way it now it is dangerous and costly for people to try to sneak across the border – they are preyed upon by animals on both sides of the border.  On their way they are victimized then once they are here and undocumented they are taken advantage of with low wages, dangerous jobs – I am sure you can think of more too.

    • #9924
      peacecorps
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      • Total Posts: 2,131

      know that illegal immigration (even though this is a decades long lows) is a softer target so you play up that fear. If that proves successful you then transfer the fear of illegal immigrants that you stoked over to legal immigrants.

      It was similar process with welfare decades ago. First you play up the ‘welfare queens’ and ‘cadillac moms’ to focus attention on the negatives of a small portion of welfare recipients (now immigrants). Once ‘welfare’ (“immigrants”) becomes a dirty word it is easy to go after the safety net (immigration) more generally.

      The right in practically every modern country wants to limit immigration – not just refugees and illegal immigrants (though they are the prized targets of course) – all immigrants.

      The Big Lie: "Make the lie big, Make it simple, Keep saying it, And eventually they will believe it." AH.

      "Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect." JG

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not solved with more nationalism.

    • #10038
      Cold Mountain Trail
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      • Total Posts: 9,895

      my post here has nothing in it.  how did that happen?

    • #10046
      Rex
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      • Total Posts: 154

      by getting a paycheck! Asshole Trump lovers dismissing these families and their problems as flippant as can be.

      Anti-human. Anti-capitalism. Pro-lizard people.

       

       

      Forcing people to work without pay is akin to slavery.

    • #10062
      jerry611
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      Say what you want about Trump, but our immigration system is totally broken. That’s the truth. And it’s been broken for a long time. It’s absolute ignorance and stupidity to suggest it’s not a problem. And it will soon get much worse. Both sides of the debate have good arguments. The system makes it incredibly difficult to navigate (and expensive) to become a citizen. But we also have a situation where we probably do need to set limits.

      There was a study not long ago that estimated over 750 million people want to immigrate to a western country. 750 MILLION! How does western civilization handle that? Should we be like Donald Trump and build walls? Should we be like Angela Merkel and just open the gates and let everyone flood in and figure it out later?

      It’s inhumane to keep them in tents? So where do you put them? There are no empty cities with empty apartment complexes waiting to be filled. There are no empty schools or hospitals. Even today with our current population, we have a doctor shortage. We have a teacher shortage. Our major cities have a problem with the homeless. Have you walked down a street in NYC lately?

      I’m just trying to be realistic. I’m tired of people on BOTH SIDES spurting out nonsense and not offering any realistic plans or realistic ideas to solve the problems.

      • #10285
        Rex
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 154

        https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

        So is around 400k to 500k a year a crisis? Seems facts state the numbers have not changed in the past 5 years so NO crossings are not at a record high.

        What if Trump is a white nationalist and it affects everything he does?

        EDIT – supposed to be a reply to Vanflower.

         

         

        Forcing people to work without pay is akin to slavery.

        • #10308
          Vanflower
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 52

          First, I never said it was a record just that it is near the record.

          Second, the trend is raising to where last month it was 62K apprehensions, apprehensions obviously do not include the illegals who successfully crossed the border undetected.  At 62K a month that would be 720,000 apprehended a year – which again does not include those successful illegal crossing.

          Third there was a record number of family units caught…Border Patrol agents apprehended 27,518 members of family units in December, the highest monthly total on record. That figure has steadily been climbing now for five months.

          Fourth, coldmountain said 45 year low – which is obviously incorrect

          So what I “what if’d” is actually correct – we are not at a 45 year low but rather closer to the other end at the other end – close to record highs.

           

          This is all from a recent 1-9-19 usa today article which I tried quoting but the hamster rejects it.

          • #10412
            Rex
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 154

            The numbers have not changed, no amount of backtracking on your part will change that. I am sorry that you are wrong.

            Forcing people to work without pay is akin to slavery.

          • #10645
            peacecorps
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 2,131

            a wall still might be more of a symbol than the best solution.

            Most understand that he is holding out for a wall because that is what he campaigned on (and what his base is focused on) rather than because it is the best solution.

            The Big Lie: "Make the lie big, Make it simple, Keep saying it, And eventually they will believe it." AH.

            "Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect." JG

            National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not solved with more nationalism.

    • #10236
      JustSayin
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 535

      unfortunately its north of the mexican border but it was not ushered in by Trump. Stagnant wages, sick people, broken society, endless gun violence endless wars. I can only imagine it as a neoliberal utopia but look over there …..Trump

      Never expect different result by following the previous steps

    • #10260
      bazukhov
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      • Total Posts: 2,865

      “My  country is the world, and my religion is to do good.”  Thomas Paine

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

      • #10270
        game meat
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,297

        Of course someone is going to have to get all these people acclimated into their new country once they get here. They are going to need jobs that pay enough to survive. They are going to have health issues that need tending to. They are going to need a place to live in a country that already has an affordable housing crisis as it is. Many of these people don’t even speak spanish, let alone english; they speak indigenous languages, so they will need interpreters, social workers, educators. Our government has proven itself incapable of providing the basics to our existing citizenry. I don’t pretend to know the answer, but I know it’s not a simple one.

    • #10274
      chknltl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,086

      I worry about the mad terrorist lurking under that rug as well.

      Snark aside, I agree with others upthread that there is a worldwide population problem.

      I recall a few years back reading or hearing about studies which show that countries with equal rights between men and women which include a well educated population tended to not have over population issues.

      In many cases, according to those studies, these countries saw their populations decrease significantly.

      It might be a long term solution but perhaps we need to take a look at the root causes, (gender inequalities or religious fundamentalism for instance), that are fueling population growths beyond where it is locally sustainable.

      No, this suggested long term solution does not address our own growing homelessness issues nor the reasons for worldwide mass migrations of economic/political refugees.

      What it may do in the decades to come is slow the growth of those issues…perhaps given enough time reverse them.

      Just my opinion.

       

      • #10329
        bazukhov
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        • Total Posts: 2,865

        It’s an ideal.   Like all political ideals it’s full of holes when it comes to putting them into practice and workable never works.

        l think the best we can hope for is that the immigrants are welcomed and aided in becoming citizens.

        The Wall sure as hell isn’t going to work.  Not to mention the sheer indecency of it.

        Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

        • #10418
          Rex
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 154

          They seem to lack the mental ability to show things like compassion and empathy. Their actions are almost always based on ignorance, fear and hatred.

          People like that you cannot deal with rationally. Trump will NEVER get his wall. It doesn’t even make any sense to build one.

          And if he cares so much about national security, why the hell did he close down the government?

          Forcing people to work without pay is akin to slavery.

          • #10427
            sadoldgirl
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 963

            That just is not true. IIRC, under W there were serious efforts made

            to come to a rational compromise and the vote was close. As long

            as there a nationstates their citizens have a right to make decisions

            about borders and immigration. The fact that this is very important

            to them is shown by the votes in Poland and Hungary. The rise of the

            AfD in Germany is due to this as well.

            Here you have the population split about this issue, while both parties

            in Congress don’t dare to offend big Agriculture, the Construction

            industry, etc. Thus all of this is kabuki theater again.

    • #11046
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,895

      No idea, as my post was erased by something or someone.  Fairly sure whatever I wrote had a link to the relevant cite posted though.

      This is in response to vanflower, but doesn’t appear to be posted as a response to vanflower.  disappearing posts and misordered posts make actual debate kind of difficult.

    • #11047
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,895

      to chknltl:  define ‘overpopulation’.

      do you define it by resource use?  the countries you speak of with the well-educated women etc. are mostly western/European/north American, & use way more resources per capita than their obverse.    Not to mention that those countries with well-educated women tend to have larger militaries than their obverse, militaries which use more resources and release more pollutants.

      do you define it by people/hectare of land?  Much of Europe has more people per hectare than e.g. most ‘3rd world countries’

      When people talk about “overpopulation,” they typically aren’t all talking about the same phenomena.

      I personally think the “well educated women” trope is a western talking point.  Nothing against well-educated women, but womens education has little to do with the root causes of overpopulation imho.  Western countries are dependent on various kinds of resources from outside their borders, and responsible for lots of environmental destruction outside their borders as well.

       

       

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