There Is No Conflict Among "Progressives" Between Warren And Sanders. She's Massively Distrusted

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    • #127696
      PADemD
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    • #127699
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,913

      Yep.  I am not conflicted at all.  As Warren says, she is a capitalist and loves the markets (and looks like the markets love her right back!) and she referred to Bernie as a Socialist.  Why would I be conflicted?

    • #127787
      Enthusiast
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,237

      I am not conflicted.

      Very well done!

      I would like to remind you that U.S. health insurance companies do not contribute anything to health care. They are only a PARASITIC middle man receiving an undeserved cut of "FREE MONEY".

      Me

    • #127846
      bazukhov
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      • Total Posts: 2,611

      I’ll happily vote for either one if they get the nomination.

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

    • #128935
      davidpdx
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 286

      I agree with you there is no conflict. People on JPR keep saying “Oh Warren is not a progressive, she’s a fake, she’s a phony”. Talk about trying to cause drama. I will vote for Warren if she is the nominee. She IS my second choice. Period, full stop.

      American living abroad in South Korea and a proud progressive.

      • #128936
        Charles
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,595

        @davidpdx

        Warren is my 2nd choice also.

        I’ve followed Warren for many years and she’s been great on many issues including the TPP, opposing Obama’s Wall Street crony appointees, drafting a New Glass Steagall bill, pushing for student debt relief , and taking on corruption on Wall Street.

        Bernie is still my first choice but I’m glad he has an ally in this race. Anyone who watched the 2nd debate knows exactly how important her presence has been for Bernie and progressive issues in this primary.

        Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

    • #128941
      davidpdx
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 286

      @charles totally agree with you.

      Until they go head to head, there is no reason for them to cut into each other nor for their supporters to do so. The bigger threat is Biden given the DNC’s previous meddling in primaries. Personally I’d like to see it down to four candidates by the beginning of next year, but that may be hoping for too much.

      American living abroad in South Korea and a proud progressive.

    • #128947
      djean111
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      • Total Posts: 3,913

      Ah, the “I love Bernie, BUT” talk has started.  Did not work last time, If I recall correctly.

    • #129148
      Pam2
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,384

      Anybody the party is trying to pre-anoint is a phony. I already didn’t trust her, now there are stories about her cozying up to party elites. That translates to no meaningful change in the status quo.

       

       

    • #130045
      davidpdx
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 286

      @pam2 those stories are hit pieces just as much as they were against Bernie the last time around.

      American living abroad in South Korea and a proud progressive.

    • #130700
      Basselope
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 24

      I donated to and worked for Sanders in 2016.  This time around, I am donating and working for Warren, but Bernie is my SOLID second choice.

      My problem with the premise of this video is that it ignores the actual plans and jumps to a bunch of conclusions without real evidence.

      The first 7 minutes or so are spent on the fact that Warren has stated she WILL be willing to do fundraisers and have pacs and super pacs during the general election.  She has worked minimally with pacs in the past.  However, the real question is has this shown ANY influence on policies?  If so, I haven’t seen it.  I have no problem with her amassing as much money as possible to take on the republican machine, SO LONG AS that money is not changing her position.  A central theme to her campaign is GET MONEY OUT of politics.  She has very specific plans outlined to accomplish that.  If someone is donating to her, they are donating TO THAT.  And yes, there are PACS and billionaires as well who want to see money OUT of politics and will spend money to get that done.  As strange as it sounds, sometimes you really REALLY do have to fight fire with fire.  (And even Sanders had a PAC, “Progressive Voters of America”).

      To answer the rest.. I need to tell a true story.  Back in late 2015 early 2016 I was brought in to consult on a project.  The CEO of the company was sometimes with loose ties to Washington.  He went to DC parties.  Was friends with several senators, not a full Washington insider, but was certainly someone who knew and spent time with enough of the players.  I told him I was putting my money behind Sanders and he told me something I will never forget.  “Don’t waste your money, the fix is in”.  This is LONG before any e-mails were hacked and released.  Long before the first vote was cast.  “The fix is in”.  In fact, he further told me that his son had just graduated from an Ivy league school with a degree in political science and despite being a HUGE Sanders supporter, he went to work for the Clinton campaign.  Why?  Because he didn’t want his political career to be over before it started.  As he put it to me at the time, “you don’t want to be on THAT list”.  (being someone who opposed a Clinton).

      Now, I ignored him and donated as much as I could and volunteered dozens of hours doing whatever I could, ultimately to find out.. yeah, the fix was in.   After speaking to more people over the years, I learned that this was one of those secrets everyone knew (who ran in those circles).  When the Me Too movement rattled the entertainment industry.. I wasn’t surprised by much.. to me these were all knowns.  Everyone knew.

      So.. duh, OF COURSE she didn’t support Sanders during the primary and OF COURSE she isn’t going to come out publicly and say “well, we all knew the result and I have issues that are important to me and I wanted to make sure those issues remained on the table”.  What sane person would do that?  Sanders knew it too, but even he has made contradictory statements on how “rigged” he felt the primary was.

      Finally.. I don’t understand this concept of “echo”.

      I remember back in 2010 when Obama backed off the public option.  Bernie was INCENSED.  There was a radio show he was on often (don’t remember the name or host), but I remember him talking about wanting to see a primary challenger to Obama.  The host was pushing Bernie to do it.  He said he didn’t want to run.  He wanted to “find someone” to champion these issues.  2015 was no different.   He spent the early part of 2015 hoping someone else would jump in.  Hillary running was a known MONTHS before she announced.  But, there was no one else who could logically fill that position.  If another Senator jumped in, their chances of having a seat at the table would be DOA.  Bernie already didn’t have a seat at the table.  He was the only person who could run, bring the issues forward and not face major repercussions as a result.

      Many of these issues are the same issues that brought Warren to Washington, arguing with Biden about the bankruptcy bill in 2005, helping to create the CFPB.  I don’t understand the concept that because Sanders was fighting this fight before she got involved in politics, that somehow makes her less valid??

      I’ve chosen her as my first choice because I like the plans.  I think she has a practical approach to getting problems solved and seeing the issues I care about handled.  If “establishment” democrats aren’t as frightened of her.. GREAT.  That’s a plus to me, so long as she will stick to the issues, as I believe she will.  I see nothing in her history to suggest otherwise.  I have never seen her flip on a fundamental issue for political expediency.  I have seen her make political decisions and accept them as part of being in politics. (such as voting for the military appropriations bill after getting amendments added for better housing, health care and climate controls).  But, when I dig through Sanders record, I could find the same things.  He has voted for things that were going to pass anyway because he got an amendment in that was important.  That’s how politics works sometimes.  That isn’t selling out principles, it is being practical.

      I’m not “vote blue no matter what”, because I wouldn’t vote Iraq War Joe or many of the other “moderates” (aka, center right politicians).  And I would send Bernie everything I could and give up every minute of spare time if he becomes the nominee.

      Finally.. I got news for everyone:  If you don’t think Bernie and Warren are working together, you don’t pay attention.  I GUARANTEE YOU, whoever isn’t winning after the Nevada caucus will DROP to attempt to consolidate the progressive vote going into super Tuesday.   They are NOT going to attack each other.  They are not going to fight.  They are going to be a united front all the way through this thing, fighting for ISSUES.

      • #131212
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,913

        @basselope

        After reading your OP carefully, I still say – nope.  Classic “I supported Bernie, BUT” stuff.  IMO and all that.    Warren would be, at best, another Obama.  In MY opinion.  I really do massively distrust her.  My choice is Bernie.  If he is not the candidate – Green.    In any event, JPR is not the kind of board that will be dedicating itself to a candidate, like SV does.

        Ohiobarbarian has posted an excellent and detailed OP about why Bernie would be a better president than Warren here:

        https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/barbarian-at-the-gates-why-bernie-sanders-is-a-better-choice-for-president-than-elizabeth-warren-part-i/

        I will stick with Bernie.

        • #131777
          Basselope
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          • Total Posts: 24

          Well, yes, @djean111 it is, but you should change one word, I SUPPORT Bernie, but… in this case the “but” is that I prefer Warren.   I would work for him, vote for him and donate to him if he is the nominee or if there is a day that I don’t think Warren has a path to the nomination anymore.

          I read the entire post you linked you and don’t see anything in there that helps me understand why someone would be in a position to say they would support Sanders, but not Warren if the primary goes that way.  The OP has viewpoints about electability and while I disagree with the conclusions, it is a valid viewpoint, but not a reason to swear off EVER voting for her.  It is a reason to support Sanders at this time and that’s awesome. The more people who hear these issues, the better.  I love the fact that their vote totals are greater than Biden and his centrist ilk.

        • #136597
          Two way street
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          • Total Posts: 1,590

          djean111,

          I agree.  Warren is wearing the purple uniform to support the Oligarchy/Establishment.  She is a triangulator supreme.  One side of the triangle is she is taking donations from small donors.  Side two of her three part plan is to take money from small donors and the business class after winning the Primary.  Then side three will be to take up an Obama-like Portfolio function for the Oligarchy, as her term(s) in the Oval Office.  She has one stipulation,  markets must be moral.

          2020 Campaign Season: We the People are in the fight for our lives and livelihoods.

      • #131335
        PADemD
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        • Total Posts: 1,872

        @basselope

        this concept of echo:

        • #131780
          Basselope
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 24

          @PADemD

          That seems to be more of a media problem, than an “echo” problem.  The concept the vlogger seemed to go for is that Warren is only copying Sanders in some attempt to trick progressive voters.  I don’t see ANY evidence of that.  The fact that the media covers issues when one person says it over another is fine with me.. the ISSUE is the important thing.  Sanders said as much at a recent town hall.

          • #132514
            djean111
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 3,913

            @basselope

            The media problem is that when Bernie says something it is ignored or jeered at as something he has already said.  (One of my favorite stupid-assed comments to read is how Bernie has not Changed His Message.  FFS.)   When Warren says the same thing – attention!  WOW!!!!!   The media is a lapdog.  And I can see the conversation oozing greasily right down to “Bernie and Warren are Just The Same!!!!! but Warren is more electabler!!!!”.   Coming to a website Near You!  So, still, I have no need to pick anything from the DNC menu if Bernie is not on it.  Those days are long gone.  A politician SAYING something means nothing these days unless there is a good record to look at and/or one can be sure as possible that they are not taking big money and doing the public face/private face thing.

      • #132054
        sadoldgirl
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 775

        @basselope:

        The issues are the important part, but only

        if you stick with them and stick to the principles.

        She did not do that in 16, so why would you expect

        her to do it now?

        As far as Biden is concerned: He may think that he

        can win, BUT his real role is to provide cover for

        the DNC to have a brokered convention.

        • #132211
          Basselope
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 24

          @sadoldgirl  I’ve heard this before, but it doesn’t make any sense, since I can’t find any evidence.

          “She did not do that in 16, so why would you expect her to do it now?”  Are you talking about her NOT endorsing Sanders?  OF COURSE she didn’t.  It was a rigged election and everyone knew it (I have a post on another thread about this).  Clinton was going to be the nominee and there was nothing anyone could do to change it and I had heard that back before a single vote was cast and I don’t run in those circles.  It was a KNOWN to people on the inside.  If she endorsed Sanders all her most precious issues are sidelined during a Clinton presidency.

          She is another Obomber*. She says herself that she is a “happy capitalist” and loves the markets. In case we all forget: 55cents of each tax dollar goes to the MIC. Bernie voted against that budget, afaIk she voted for it. That in itself is a huge difference.”  Not really if you follow the money.  As far as capitalists go, there is no difference between her and Sanders on capitalism.  For the vote you are talking about is the NDAA that was going to pass with OVERWHELMING support with or without her.  However, as a member of the Armed Services Committe she did was get several amendments that went towards important issues, such as debt forgiveness, health care for troops, better housing standards, just to name a few.  So, yeah, she voted for the NDAA, but only after she had an important impact upon it.

          ‘She is already retreating from M4A”  This is just FALSE.  Despite releasing plans on EVERYTHING else, she hasn’t released a health care plan.  When asked about it she cited that the plan already exists and she is a co-sponsor of it.  I think you are confusing her with Harris, who did back away from it.

          As for Wall Street, they have HARDLY endorsed her.  However, even they can read the writing on the wall and see that she has a very real possibility of being president and they need to get comfortable with that.  As much as they don’t like Warren or Sanders, you know what they hate worse?  CONFUSION.  Trump is CONFUSION.

          • #132512
            Charles
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,595

            @basselope

            Thank you for the additional background on Warren’s vote on the NDAA. Her vote was disturbing without context as it looked like she had just voted for the increased spending military spending. I looked for info on this before but didn’t think to add the term “amendments” in my search so I wasn’t able to come up with anything other than the results talking only about the vote without any details.

             

            https://www.masslive.com/news/2019/06/financial-protection-for-military-spouses-championed-by-sen-elizabeth-warren-passed-in-senate-defense-bill.html

             

            I knew Warren has spoken about her planning to cut military spending so her vote seemed to contradict that. She also has plans to end the revolving door between defense contractors and the Pentagon. Now knowing that she had those amendments attached and the fact that the bill already had the votes I am more understanding as to why she did it.

            When Bernie was running in 2016 a similar scenario existed over at SV where Sanders supporters touted his opposition to the Iraq war and Hillary supporters would point to military spending bills that Bernie voted for. Bernie like Warren did vote for some military spending bills that were going to pass anyhow but he had also gotten amendments attached that helped the troops.

            Both Sanders and Warren have voted for military spending that help their constituents which doesn’t thrill me but it’s what politicians do. Bernie has voted for the F-35 since Vermont has a base there and Warren has worked to protect military contractors in Massachusetts.

            I’d still prefer not to see either of them voting in favor of the military spending bills but getting amendments attached to these bills which help the actual troops does make sense.

            For me Bernie is still much better than Warren in regards to military and foreign policy but they are both closer to where I am in regards to these issues than any of the other candidates outside of Tulsi Gabbard. Most of the other Democrats seem to be true NeoLibs that have the same mind set as the GOP.

            Thanks again for pointing the amendments out in this case.

            Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

          • #132513
            Charles
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,595

            @basselope

            “Despite releasing plans on EVERYTHING else, she hasn’t released a health care plan.  When asked about it she cited that the plan already exists and she is a co-sponsor of it.  I think you are confusing her with Harris, who did back away from it.”

            I had a hunch Warren hadn’t produced her own healthcare bill because she was supporting Sanders’ M4All bill and was fine with it. Do you a source for her response? I haven’t been able to find a source for that. Again much appreciated.

            Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

            • #133191
              Basselope
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 24

              @charles
              I am trying to find it, but it was one of the town halls that I watched, and she has done over 100 of them, but this was a few months ago and tt was a fairly quick and simple exchange where someone asked why haven’t you released a health care plan and she said, I’m a co-sponsor on Medicare for all and then she talked about how insurance companies are sucking billions out, etc.  She KINDA said it at the debate, but the question wasn’t posed directly.  Since then, I have just accepted it, since Sanders plan makes a lot of sense and there is no reason for her to come out with her own TWIST on it.  When I just googled to try and find a clip, I see that more and more people are calling on her to release something, so maybe she will at some point, but I strongly suspect it will just be a mirror of M4A.  I’ll try and look more through her facebook for May and June, since I am guessing that’s where it was and I think they keep all the video and if I can find the exchange I will clip it out and upload it.


              @pam2

              The video is interesting deceptive, especially early on when they completely misquote a tweet.  Warren didn’t say the military was being directly threatened by climate change.  She talked about hardening the military against the threat posed by climate change.  That threat is to EVERYONE.   There is a certain sad reality to the MIC… you can’t dismantle it overnight, as that would completely destabilize the economy.  And, just like Sanders, Warren has voted for military budgets, but as I explained above, it is b/c she sits on the armed services committee and got amendments put in them that did good.  Charles had much better links than I on that.  But, back to the MIC.. there are literally millions of jobs that depend upon the military and the MIC was built over the course of 60 years.  As the name suggests, it is COMPLEX.  Anyone who tells you they will dismantle it in their first 100 days, is lying.  It has to be slowly and carefully shifted.  I think either Warren or Sanders are set to do this.  Warren has an interesting approach, by having them focus on being 100% renewable by 2030, you are forcing the thousands of companies that rely upon them to develop and manufacturer green technology.  It is effectively using the existence of this twisted relationship between the military and businesses to get the businesses to do what you want them to do.  I STRONGLY suspect that President Sanders would adopt a similar approach.


              @djean111
                Again, I see this as a media issue and not a Bernie vs Warren issue.  BTW, as much as I am here “advocating for Warren”, within my Warren circles I am advocating for Bernie as second choice.  A LARGE contingent seem to go to Harris as second choice.  It could be b/c I am located in CA or it could be because they just don’t want “another old white guy” (I have heard that a lot), but I tell them they should look to Sanders as the backup option b/c it is about the ISSUES, not the person, their race or gender.  Right now there are only 3 of the 10 I would CONSIDER of those taking the stage.. Warren, Sanders, Harris (a distant 3rd who would have a lot of work to do to convince me she is just another center right politician wearing a progressive mask).  I see Biden as the real enemy and want to make sure he does not get nominated.

    • #131155
      davidpdx
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 286

      @basselope well put. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

      American living abroad in South Korea and a proud progressive.

    • #132045
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 775

      PADemD is correct. She is another Obomber*. She says herself

      that she is a “happy capitalist” and loves the markets. In case

      we all forget: 55cents of each tax dollar goes to the MIC. Bernie

      voted against that budget, afaIk she voted for it. That in itself

      is a huge difference. She is already retreating from M4A. She

      wants to “reform the system”, not to change it. That means

      tinkering at the outside. No matter how you slice it: If

      Wall Street says that she is acceptable, it is a red line

      for me.

      *To quote Palin:”How is that hopey changey thing

      working out for you?” (5 more wars, more drilling

      than ever before, $700 billion for the banks, etc)

    • #133325
      greenfive
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 123

      @basselope totally agree with you on the strategic moves and how they are necessary in the big game – although we differ in our first choice.

      Everytime someone brings up the big differences btwn. Sanders and Warren, I am reminded of this video from before the tax bill. Go to the last few minutes. paraphrasing ‘that’s what Bernie and I are fighting for. We’re in this fight all the way’ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj1zh_U2CWo

      And I’ll put money on Bernie and Liz planning the whole good cop/bad cop thing. They can easy get 15% each in every primary. What I won’t put money on is who is going to ‘give’ who their delegates. They’ll have a clear majority on the first vote.

      And whoever it isn’t will take Mitch’s place in the senate – fingers crossed.

       

       

    • #133566
      davidpdx
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 286

      And I’ll put money on Bernie and Liz planning the whole good cop/bad cop thing.


      @greenfive
      I totally agree that there is some kind of an alliance between the two. Many here won’t want to admit it, but they are working together.

      American living abroad in South Korea and a proud progressive.

    • #133634
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,913

      @basselope

      All I have to do is read about “old white guy”, “California”, and “Harris as a distant third” to know that you are coming from a completely different angle than I would ever ever ever consider.   For me – and remember I am not a Democrat, and the DNC/Democratic Party IS the enemy, to ME – Biden and Harris are certainly the enemy, and Warren with her love of markets and quite fluid loyalties is perhaps an okay VP consideration.  At best.  And California is not a liberal state.  But it IS a state that can magically come up with millions of extra votes for Hillary.  I don’t think elections in California are any less corrupted and rigged than elections in my state, Florida.  I think talk of what Californians say is kinda pointless because of that.

      This is not some contest here, where if you or anybody else just keep posting volumes of “blue linkies” and words, people will eventually switch to your way of thinking.  That did not work for Hillary in 2016, over at SV, if I recall correctly.  It got kind of comical, really.

      No matter how many times you state that the “echo” thing is just a media issue – Warren IS parroting Bernie, and IMO that is just to appeal to Bernie’s supporters.  And perhaps to avoid putting real intentions out there at this point.   I don’t really watch “the media” very much at all.  I know the airwaves and internet are awash with pandering and deception and industrious shills like the Brock excrement.  So I just pay attention to what politicians say and have done in the past; I do not need that explained to me.

      Harris as a third option?  You completely lost credibility there, for me.  If you cannot see right NOW that Harris is just another Vichy Dem who is really not even bothering to wear a mask, your perceptions are not anything I would consider.  ANY ticket with Harris ANYWHERE on it – Green my vote is.  And that is how I will grass-roots in my community.  What gets said here is all very interesting, but is really a small number of actual votes.  Right now my family and my millennial grandson’s friends won’t even go to the polls if they cannot vote for Bernie – my task is to get them to at least vote Green.

      @davidpx

      “admit” Bernie and Warren are working together?  That’s kind of extreme, really, but I don’t really care what Bernie and Warren are doing in that regard, I will not vote for Warren for president, and I feel that Warren as VP would undermine Bernie’s plans that threaten Wall Street and the banks and her beloved markets.  So I would rather see a Bernie/Gabbard ticket.  Bottom line.

      • #134172
        Basselope
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 24

        @djean111  I say “Old White Guy”, b/c that is what I am hearing from several Warren supporters, as I am actively involved in going to events in my area.  I COUNTER that whenever I hear it and continue to say that Sanders should be every Warren supporters’ ABSOLUTE #2.  No one is “pushing Bernie out”.  However, I believe it is important for progressives to have priorities straight, which primarily not to let someone like Biden (or any other centrist) get the nomination.  We have made choices in the primaries for various reasons.

        I also don’t see Bernie taking any steps to eliminate markets.  In fact, he wants to use them as a source of revenue to cancel student debt.  Warren gets to the same place with the wealth tax.  Both candidates embrace capitalism and the markets in pretty much the same way, they just use different words.  He calls it democratic socialism, she calls it regulated capitalism, but they are ultimately almost identical in execution.

        And while I am far from sold on Harris, I don’t agree that she is a Vichy Dem.  And while I acknowledge you get to decide who personally you see as a Vichy dem, I get to do the same from my perspective.  I see her as a reformable opportunist.  I think she has SOME principles and lines she will not cross, but will bend many of them in pursuit of power.  Obama showed us who he really was with his vote on the FISA bill and while he offered an amendment that would have improved the bill dramatically, he SHOULD have pulled his support when the amendment failed.   However, I think talk of Harris doesn’t even matter at this point as she has dropped to a distant 4th and unless she absolutely wows people in the next debate, she is all but gone.

        Right now I think the key is combating Biden.   Until I read someone else’s analysis above (sorry for not giving credit, but I can’t find it now, might be in another thread), I thought either Sanders or Warren would drop after Nevada to give the other a boost going into Super Tuesday, but since NONE of the primaries are winner take all, they COULD both stay in until the end and then join forces.   My only concern with that is that it could breed additional resentment between the two camps.  I am personally perfectly happy with either candidate.  I will donate, work  and vote for Warren until she is no longer viable, then I will switch all to Sanders, but the longer it goes on, the more people are going to get entrenched and be unwilling to vote for ISSUES over PEOPLE.

        So, I ultimately agree with the last line of your tagline.. Bernie’s ISSUES or Bust!

    • #134085
      greenfive
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 123

      djean: “Warren IS parroting Bernie, and IMO that is just to appeal to Bernie’s supporters” Hey, is that such a bad thing?

      I do appreciate your zeal, and I do think it is important to be unyeilding on positions that are threatening to your moral sense of being.

      But I also think, at some point, you have to make the distinction of your personal stance, and your community stance. That’s part of socialism. Clinton was never part of a compromise. Harris is not different. But Warren? Really? ‘Her precious markets’ that she has demonstrably tried to reign in and pass legislation to make fairer? She’s frickin light years away from any vichy dem.

      However, if it helps shift the power to the people, keep on making out Warren to be an enemy of the common man. I don’t know who is being fooled the most – the intransigent left or the centre.

    • #134147
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,913

      @greenfive

      I do not think Warren will actually do anything that would make her markets lose a nickel in profits or miss a second of sleep.

      The zeal with which people are popping up and popping into JPR in order to push Warren is fascinating – why, exactly, is there a push to establish Warren as a second choice before a primary vote has been cast or a caucus has occurred?  Testing the waters if Bernie is pushed out?  Anyway, my stance is that “the markets” have hurt us, and that Warren will not really impede the markets.  Won’t really do away with that fabulous money-making private insurance market.  So – my stance is, Bernie or Green.  My community is and will be hurt by today’s capitalism, and I don’t think stern words from an avowed capitalist and markets lover will change much of anything.  neither does Wall Street, methinks.  And I also see Warren as a hawk.

      Again – why so much zeal put into making Warren a “second choice”?  That sorta smells like there is a predetermined outcome is planned or  ahead.  IMO and all that.  I will pass.  And I do not have to justify my vote to anyone but myself.

      • #134164
        greenfive
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 123

        If Bernie is winning, but not with the majority of delegates needed before a second vote, it will have done no good to alienate Warren supporters. But I happen to believe Warren will encourage her delegates to go to Sanders. I really hope I’m right. All indications point to that. Do you really suppose, if in a pinch, this time around, that she – if not winning – would support any one else?

        This is about winning.

        Also, hey – not new or popping up. I’ve been here since the beginning of this board, as have you. Maybe not as prolific a poster. But I’m a Canadian bot.

        • #134175
          djean111
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 3,913

          If Warren was just doing the politically expedient thing by endorsing Hillary in 2016, I think all bets are off as to who she might endorse in 2020.  And – no, winning is not the most important thing to me.  Unless it is Bernie.  And I am no longer a Democrat.  Are Warren’s supporters being exhorted to choose Bernie as second choice Right Now? Over at reddit, her supporters are scornful of Bernie and also live in Vote For the Blue No Matter Who Land.  Same for Warren supporters at SV.    I am feeling a bit like Bernie’s supporters are regarded as spoils to be awarded to Warren, at this point.

          • #134259
            Basselope
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 24

            @djean111

            FWIW, I am VERY against the vote blue no matter who movement and I am pushing as many Warren supporters as possible to choose Bernie as #2.  Obviously, much like Bernie supporters, we are NOT a cult and do not all act the same.   There are SOME Warren supporters who just want a woman or minority and thus, reject Bernie out of hand.  I detest that, as it shouldn’t be about the person, but the issues.  I also suspect there are SOME people who are desperate to drive a wedge between Sanders and Warren supporters, b/c right now their coalition is stronger than Biden  (Sanders 17.1 + Warren 16.5 > Biden 28.9).

    • #134311
      PADemD
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,872
      • #134314
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,913

        @pademd

        Yes.  at least 30 days before the primary.  I can do that online, or at the office that is really close to where I live.

        To anyone who asks why should I vote in a democratic primary if I am not a Democrat?  Setting aside the fact that I doubt the Democratic primaries are actually democratic, if a Democrat is elected, whatever they do is applied (or inflicted) on ALL of us, not just Democrats.  So yes, I feel I should have a say in that, or at least feel a bit like I tried, and it counted for something.

    • #134315
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 775

      @djean111;

      You are correct to see a push here for Warren.

      I wonder whether some people walked into

      this site on purpose to divide us. On SV

      Warren has the highest rating, which means

      to me that she is a happy establishment

      supporter and may just run to divide the

      vote. Nothing could please the DNC more.

      • #134316
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,913

        @sadoldgirl

        Yep.  Or maybe JPR is on a checklist, and it is someone’s task to Set Us Straight.  Bwahahaha!

      • #135422
        Basselope
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 24

        @sadoldgirl @djean111

        There is no “checklist” and no one is coming from that other board to “set you straight”.

        I’ve been tombstoned 3 times from that other site.

         

        Got booted every time for the same reason.   I refused to pledge that I would VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO.  I was one of the early signups here when they did mass tombstoning for failing to bow down and kiss Clinton’s ring.

        What is disturbing to me is the “guilt by association” I keep seeing.  Well, THEY like Warren, so there must be something wrong with her.  In 2016 “They” liked Bernie until the anointed one assumed the throne and they purged anyone who didn’t swear fealty.  It’s been 3 years, there are lots of new users there, so “they” might not be the same “they” and there may be another purging coming.. or not.  I remember they let the PUMAs stay in 2008 with just warnings.  Whatever, I’m not there anymore.  Maybe I will create another handle to try and keep focusing on my angle, which is for Warren and Sanders supporters to focus on the ISSUES not the person and ULTIMATELY (not now, but ULTIMATELY) go with whoever emerges as the best opportunity to deny the nomination to a centrist.

        • #135735
          djean111
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 3,913

          @basselope

          There is no “guilt by association” driving my non-support of Warren.  It is just a small part of it.  I don’t like Warren because of how enamored she is of capitalism, and how her regulations really won’t change anything, IMO.  Her associations with people I consider corporatist is a part of that, not a main driver.  Things like that.  Things that would bother me about any candidate.  We really do remember Obama, and how bright and shiny and progressive he was inferred to be.

          And I do wonder how long it will be until we are asked to be “pragmatic” and throw our support to Warren.

          To say we don’t like Warren because  SV or Wall Street loves her, as the only reason WE don’t love her, is deliberate marginalization. We have stated we do not trust Warren on the issues we care about.  You saying we should means nothing, you have no more idea what Warren would do if elected than anyone else here.    In any event, pledges to do anything political on a board have always struck me as ridiculous.  I did not “get booted” from SV, I just left.  And the sudden gush of Warren talk here really should have been loosed after primaries started, after votes have been cast.  Just wondering about second choices before a vote is cast does not warrant all the effort, IMO.  Of course, we are talking about the DNC, so votes being cast is kinda moot, there’s that.   So nope.  As far as I am concerned, if the DNC wants Warren they will have to do that the way they always do things – cheat and rig.

          Nope to Warren – and now, even more “nope” than I felt a few weeks ago.  The lengthy verbiage flung around about Warren from relatively few people is starting to remind me of 2016.  Just started ignoring it then.

          • #135921
            PADemD
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 1,872

            @djean111


            @basselope

            I don’t like Warren because of how enamored she is of capitalism, and how her regulations really won’t change anything, IMO. Her associations with people I consider corporatist is a part of that, not a main driver. Things like that. Things that would bother me about any candidate. We really do remember Obama, and how bright and shiny and progressive he was inferred to be.

            Yes, I feel the same way!

            If we depend on regulating corporations to combat climate change, we are royally screwed.  Also, Bernie proposes to abolish student debt slavery; Warren’s plan merely alleviates student debt slavery by $25,000.

            • #136265
              Basselope
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 24

              @djean111  @pademd

              I don’t see anything difference between Bernie and Warren in regards to “capitalism” and how they will regulate the markets.  They have nearly IDENTICAL policies on this and simply use different words to describe their position.  Democratic Socialism is NOT socialism.  It leaves capitalism untouched.  Bernie’s plans RELY on capitalism.  One of his plans specifically involves taxing stock transactions.  That leaves Wall Street in tact and uses it as a revenue source, which I am all for.. but I honestly don’t understand how you can distinguish between Sanders and Warren in regards to their approach to Wall Street or capitalism in general.

              As for student debt, this is actually one of the plans where I like Warren’s approach a bit better.  She eliminates up to $50,000 of student debt for people who make under 250K per year.  Bernie wants to forgive ALL student debt.   The Student Loan system has been used for years by people simply looking for “cheap money”.  I went to law school and EVERYONE (and I do mean every single person) was taking loans.  However, some people came from extremely well off families.  One kid was driving the Ferrari his parents got him as a “congrats you got into law school” present.  He took loans.  It was free money.  Since you are likely not working, you qualify for federal loans and the money is completely interest free until 6 months after you graduate (well, the government pays the interest, but it is free money to you) and even when the interest kicks in, it is really low AND tax deductible.    Under Bernie’s system those people get rewarded.  Warren’s plan was data driven.  Average student debt is under 40K.  Her plan would eliminate debt for the vast majority of people, while reducing the chance that those who used the system to get free or cheap money still must repay it.  Those who used it for free/cheap money often already had cushy gigs lined up for them and are likely making over 250K per year, so they would not qualify for forgiveness.  While the people who are struggling would see significant (more likely complete) relief.

              • #136274
                djean111
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 3,913

                @basselope

                I disagree with you on all points.

                Further lengthy verbiage from you is pointless.

                There is really no need to keep this up.  I will not vote for Warren, neither will my family or anyone else I can influence.  And again, the pounding on this so far in advance smells bad.  You do Warren no favors.

                ‘bye now.

                • #136410
                  Basselope
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 24

                  @djean111

                  You have yet to give me a reasoned analysis of how they are different on Wall Street, other than their use of certain words.  Policy wise they are identical.  You say you “Disagree on all points”, but seem unwilling to say WHY or give any analysis.

                  I fear you would be very disappointed with a Sanders presidency in much the same way many people were with Obama because they thought he was something that he wasn’t.  Sanders is NOT a socialist.  He doesn’t want to destroy the markets.  That isn’t an opinion, it is a fact and you can read it in his plans and policy proposals.

                  • #136511
                    djean111
                    Participant
                    • Total Posts: 3,913

                    @basselope

                    I do not have to give you a “reasoned analysis” about anything, and I suspect your mission here is to drown any analysis here that does not agree with yours in a tsunami of verbiage.    Like many others here – I am not a Democrat,  I do not think “winning is everything”, and  I decide for myself who to support.   It will not be anyone but Bernie.  And – disappointed in a Bernie presidency?  If all he does is keep the DNC from working with their buddies across the aisle, that’s good enough for me.

                    Try to suck it up about the student debt thing, sweetie.  Means-testing is how Third-Wayers start to drown that baby in a bathtub.   Which is how I feel about the DNC.

                    You are actually doing Warren no favors here, IMO.  You asked about Warren, you were answered, you really have no authority to ask for more detailed reasons or really any reason to keep harangueing – because that is what it is starting to look like – and maybe some acceptance is in order.  Hey, JPR does not do anything, support anybody, en masse, so there’s that.  Trying to extract a consensus on Warren – especially since some of us would not be surprised to start reading about golly, maybe it would be better to support Warren and not Bernie, is futile.  Again, this is not SV and I don’t think you really want to be the blue linkies lady equivalent here.  Your insistence on something that is basically unenforceable seems strange, kinda.

                    So, again, I don’t owe you a reasoned response – or more to the point – a response that agrees with your thinking.   I will not support Warren.  Period.   I  am not basing this on whether or not the DNC succeeds in screwing Bernie again – which is what I believe they plan to do – I just won’t vote for anyone running as a Democrat but Bernie.

                    Any more of this conversation would be descending into farce, because you have certainly had your say, and that’s that.  By the way, I would never take advice from someone who thinks Harris might not be a Third Way corporate Vichy Dem.  She already turned on Medicare for All.  She has no progressive mask on, and IMO would be furious if anyone thought she did – she is playing to the corporate crowd.  Her student debt plan is ridiculously narrow.  Her history is one of a right wing tyrant, IMO again.  So, no.  Just no.  Have a nice day, as they say!

                    • #136514
                      Basselope
                      Participant
                      • Total Posts: 24

                      @djean111

                      You don’t HAVE to give a reasoned analysis, but you should be able to do so.  This is a political message board, where people are supposed to share and discuss political opinions and part of that is reasoning through you own.

                      I am also not a democrat.  I have NEVER been a registered democrat.  I have the advantage of living in a state where I don’t have to register democrat to vote in the primary.   And sorry to tell you but Bernie would NOT keep the DNC from working across the aisle.  Bernie has worked across the aisle many times in his history.  He is against adherence to corporatism, just as Warren is, but Bernie adopts the vast majority of the DNC platform and would work to enact it as President.   I love Bernie, but I also realize he IS a pragmatist and will compromise where he needs to in order to get things he deems more important on the table.

                      As I said before, based on your statements.  I fear you would be very disappointed in a Bernie candidacy.  You do realize he would very likely choose Kamala Harris as his VP, right?  I feel like you are for Bernie just because you perceive that certain people are against him.. but that is ultimately a betrayal of who and what Bernie is fighting for.

                      • #136516
                        djean111
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 3,913

                        @basselope

                        Whoomp!  There it is!

                        You feel I am FOR Bernie only because others are AGAINST him?  Bwahahahahaha!   You really cannot read a room.  Now you are questioning if I am actually for Bernie because of his policies and his record?    And did you read where I said if Bernie keeps Vichy Dems from doing their thing across the aisle, that would be good enough?  Now you sound desperate.  Just no.  Accept it.

                      • #136520
                        Basselope
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 24

                        @djean111

                        It is hardly “there it is”.  I have been asking the same questions for a while now.   You also failed to address that Bernie WILL NOT completely keep corporate dems from doing “their thing” across the aisle.  This isn’t how he has ever operated.  He has also been pragmatic when necessary.  I have followed Bernie since before he was in the Senate was sending him e-mails begging him to get in the race MONTHS before he announced in 2015.  But, I have no illusions about who he is.  He IS a politician who makes political decision when necessary.  This is why he campaigned for Clinton in 2016, as much as I detested it, I understood it.

                        Bernie’s Issues or BUST.

        • #137163
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 13,725

          Post edited to comply with Community Standards and Guidelines by the mod team .

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          If Democrats don’t stand for the people, why should people stand for them?--Jim Hightower

      • #136341
        Haikugal
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 1,557

        @sadoldgirl, @djean111

        Thumbs up and a hearty recommendation for your posts here. It is pretty obvious that we are being ‘evangelized’ for Warren and Harris…DNC, winning is everything etc.. etc. etc.

        No way…Bernie or green. There it is. I registered as dem only because I want to vote for Bernie in the primary then I’ll drop out again. I am NOT a dem, not any more.

        • #136404
          Mr. Mickeys Mom
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 3,304

          We are doing the same thing, Haikugal. I change my party back to Green after the primary since 2016. Funny…. when I went through the motions to do this via the internet last time, Pennsylvania registration forms didn’t let me complete the change. I had to fill the online form out 3 times before it “took”, and back to Green I go…

          Every time I have to re-register to Democratic for the primary’s sake, I feel like I need a shower afterwards. That’s how bad a position we are in. If everyone’s not immediately aware of that, they have some more homework to do. My sister FINALLY realizes the corrupt nature, yet, she stays a registered D.

          Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #134329
      ronRonnie1
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 325
    • #135553
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 775

      You,Basselope, are trying again and again. I suppose

      that you feel that you are on a mission. Okay.

      Do not forget history of any of the candidates,

      and say this is where they are now. Just as the

      Biden history shows where he came from and

      what he did to this country, Warren’s should be

      up to the same scrutiny. After all they are only

      8-9 years apart. While Bernie was supporting

      Nicaragua’s fight for independence from the US

      she was a – let’s call it in a friendly way – an Ike

      supporter. Now Ike’s policies are inconceivable

      to the Repugs, and have been adopted to a

      certain extent by the Dems. And that is where

      Warren is. Just as the rebellious Bernie as a

      democratic socialist has mostly stayed where

      he came from. People have to adapt and change

      with times and circumstances as well as the

      political propaganda is driving them. Bernie

      is calling for a peaceful political revolution,

      while due to present circumstances attacking

      Maduro in Venezuela. Warren strives for an

      economic reform (only),but has not really

      exposed her believes as far as foreign

      policies are concerned. Thus in my opinion:

      Bernie attacks the capitalistic system (though

      in a rather cautious form), while Warren intends

      to reform it to a certain degree without upsetting

      the apple cart. The country wants real change, and

      that can only come from someone, who has fought

      for it for decades, not 6 or 7 years.

      • #136344
        Haikugal
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 1,557
      • #136518
        Basselope
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 24

        @sadoldgirl

        My “mission” is to make sure Biden doesn’t get the nomination or any of his ilk.  I want to see the US FINALLY take a turn in the right direction.  We had a golden opportunity in 2008 and Obama squandered it.

        As I have said numerous times, I would be PERFECTLY HAPPY if Bernie gets the nomination.  I have personally chosen to back Warren at this time for reasons I have explained in detail.  I respect everyone sticking with their candidate RIGHT NOW.

        However, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.  If their comes a day that Warren backs out and throws her support to Sanders, I will be there with bells on.  My MISSION is to dispel some of the myths I have seen flying about and try and convince some people that if the day comes that Bernie backs out and throws his support to Warren that his supporters will realize that they truly are a united front AGAINST the corporate wing of the democratic party.

        I understand why people have chosen Sanders over Warren in the primary and if he wins, more power to him.  It’s his ISSUES I care about.

    • #136347
      Mr. Mickeys Mom
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 3,304

      “So…. This is for Primaries” inconsistencies and, “I do not believe in unilateral disarmaments” comments concern me because although I was born on a Thursday, it was not LAST Thursday…

      Why would I want to rely on this kind of leadership? It’s inconsistent. Additionally, why would I want to take $800 Billion dollars and add it into the MIC, and based her passing THAT horrendous budget, use those metrics in making a point about making it compatible with a Green New Deal? Every one of us should have an objection to dark money. Don’t tell me that “primary, not general” isn’t a sellout, @basselope

      Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #136592
      Dudester
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 438

      Warren lost already. “Improve access to health care”. FUCK THAT NOISE. She said that yesterday. She’s dead meat.

       

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