Home Main Forums General Discussion Three DNC/neocon strategies that progressives should oppose (Pt1, Impeachment)

  • arendt (1432 posts)
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    Three DNC/neocon strategies that progressives should oppose (Pt1, Impeachment)

    The strategies are: Impeachment, the McCarthyite demonization of Russia, and making a martyr out of Comey. To support any of these strategies is to undermine progressive policies. People who say that they reject “2 out of 3” of these bad ideas don’t get any slack from me. That’s like saying that 2 out of 3 bullets missed.

     

    It will take three separate OPs to examine these strategies in any detail. Trying to put all three analyses into one OP will simply  be so long as to stop people from reading, plus it will commingle the comments and diffuse the arguments. I will put the same summary at the end of each OP.

     

    On request,  links to other parts:  Part 2 , Part 3

    1. Impeachment – it just makes the GOP juggernaut move faster.

    I cannot fathom the Democrats for {Pence, Ryan,…whichever GOPer} strategy of impeachment. Democrats do not gain any political power from impeachment. The government remains completely in GOP hands – in all three branches, in the majority of states. Impeachment merely removes a loose cannon named Trump from the deck of the SS John Birch and replaces it with the stout Fundamentalist howitzer, Mike Pence. It will improve GOP legislative and message discipline immensely. Legislation that has been log jammed, by irritated assholes like John McCain, due to feeling insulted by the Donald, will suddenly break free, and the last bits of our democracy will be democratically be legislated out of existence.

    Furthermore, with Pence at the helm, we will be half way to Dominionism before the country gets out of bed. You think the End Times crazies in the Air Force and the Army and the fundies in the Congressional Prayer Breakfast/The Family are bad news now? Wait until President Pence gives starts protecting and advancing them.

    Democrats for President Pence is a an idiotic strategy that pre-empts much more effective strategies laid out by genuine progressives, which is exactly why it is pursued. Corporate Democrats prioritize killing progressives above killing the GOP – the exact same way that Chiang Kai-shek prioritized killing communists above killing Japanese during WW2.

    There is also another small :sarcasm: problem with the method of impeachment. Impeachment by leaks and fishing expeditions hands our democracy over to the spook shops and their $100 B black budget

    Consider the price of victory if the security directorate were somehow to establish itself as a check on those presidential policies – or officials – that it happened to dislike. To formally charge the bureaucracy with providing a check on the president, Congress, or the courts would represent an entirely new form of government, a system in which bureaucratic autocracy displaces democratic accountability…

    AS a creature of the people’s elected institutions, the bureaucracy was never intended to be the coequal of Congress, the Courts, and the President. Bureaucracy doesn’t even appear in the constitutional design that emerged from Philadelphia in 1787. Under the Constitution, power is delegated to the intelligence bureaucracy, not by it…Those who would counter the illiberalism of Trump with the illiberalism of unfettered bureaucracy would do well to contemplate the precedent their victory would set.

    – Michael J. Glennon, Security Breach, Harper’s Magazine, June 2017.

    So, beyond having no effect on GOP policies, impeachment will entrench the MIC at the heart of our politics. It wouid be a worse blackmailer regime than the one run by J. Edgar Hoover. What could possibly go wrong?

    ——
    In summary
    This trio of made-in-Clinton-istan strategies moves the progressive cause backwards. The strategies reinforce each other. You have to be willfully blind not to see that impeaching Trump will result more neocon warmongering, up to and including provoking a war with Russia. You have to be willfully blind not to see that using Comey to get Trump will continue to hide the crimes of the Clintons – whose ass he has already saved once. One slimy hand washes the other.
    For me, people defending any leg of this triad of destruction are defending all of the legs. There are many such defenses posted on this board. It aggravates me that a board, which is widely derided by the corporate media (we are “fake news:) – not to mention SV, TOS – as screamingly leftwing, is full of posts and comments that catapult this neocon/neoliberal propaganda.

    ** ON EDIT** :

    I have decided to soften my previous harsher statement about JPR. I do this out of a sense of community. Nobody is twisting me; but I am listening to private messages. Here is my new attitude.
    If you want to have a progressive board, you have to tolerate a lot of edgy behavior.
    Does anyone recall the infamous “nnadir”, The Baghdad Bob of the pro-nuclear industry? IIRC, he was at DU for a long time, bashing green energy. After a few years of his one-sided, counter-factual rants, he was a standing joke. No one took him seriously. They just let him scream at the wind.
    I think that we should just ignore the Baghdad Bob’s of “Russian hacking/interference”. Until some genuine evidence turns up, that will be easy. But eventually connections to the Russian mob will turn up. The mob is all over NY/NJ, especially in real estate.
    Trump is clearly mobbed up, and that includes the Russian mob. The general public is pretty clueless about the difference between a Russian mobster, a Russian oligarch, and a Russian government agent. When, inevitably, Trump gets his tie deservedly caught in the corruption wringer, I will be there to make the distinction between gangsters and governments as clear as possible.
    In the meantime, I’m just going to ignore the interference crowd. I think that issue is settled. But, I will continue to point out that impeachment is another bad idea from “the most qualified candidate ever”, and that James Comey is a loathsome toad who would sell out his own grandmother.

    leveymg, Zentrum, Babel 17 and 44 othersHeartoftheMidwest, Doremus Jessup, NJOCK, Koko, Blackspade, bbgrunt, Passionate Progressive, Spanishprof27, Betty Karlson, Fire with Fire, Anemonella, joentokyo, snot, Beebee, ozoneman, tonyl, relgire, senz, 3FingerBrown, HIP56948, Enthusiast, Pangolino, xynthee, cui bono, azurnoir, zeemike, Salemcourt, Pam, Jan Boehmermann, Shlabotnik, OCMI, Populist Prole, TwilightSporkle, djean111, nenagh, Marym625, jwirr, JEB, BillZBubb, ZimInSeattle, Ichingcarpenter, hypergrove, Rocker, Silver Witch like this

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    • Silver Witch (5476 posts)
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      1. This should be on the Daily Radical!!

      Off to read part 2 and 3. Thank you Arendt.

      #Let'sTalkRevolution
    • ZimInSeattle (1486 posts)
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      2. Agreed. All 3 strategies you outline only only enhance establishment Dem

      obfuscation of and distraction from the progressive agenda.

      Proudly #DemExited & #LeftOut  | "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK | Bernie would have WON!  |“Fascism is a result of the failure of the left to provide an alternative” - Leon Trotsky | Sanders/Gabbard 2020 (PPP
    • BillZBubb (2817 posts)
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      3. I have no problem impeaching Trump for REAL crimes.

      But I agree, the wild Clinton/Third Way attempts to gin up a rationale for impeachment are of no help to progressive goals. In fact, they are counter-productive.

      In the current situation, THE ONLY WAY Trump gets impeached is if the republican/right wing powers decide he must go. You can be sure if that happens we’ll get someone even worse in Trump’s place.

      DemExit! Don't give the Democrats a dime. Don't identify as a Democrat. Drop Democratic identification below 20%. Only then will they support true progressive policy. Until then, corporate money rules.
    • Marym625 (26488 posts)
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      4. Going on The Daily Radical!

      I’m shocked at the last part. You’re not really paying attention if you’re even saying that. JackpineRadicals is not only advocating for multiple progressive candidates and legislation, we’re working hard on developing better ways to expose corruption, research these new, supposed, “progressive” organizations popping up all over and vetting candidates ourselves.

      We’re also going to podcast, for the first time, thanks to @sofarfromheaven and @deadpool from The People’s Summit. We’ll be speaking to Larry Cohen and other important people there.

      We’ve applied for press passes. We’re going to do a fund raiser specifically to help people attend.

      There’s so much more here I find that insulting to all of us.

      In fact, I see you and a couple others pushing the bullshit that we’re not progressive more than I see the bullshit you’re bitching about. You help nothing with that. Nothing. You take away from your great piece and YOU bring it up, again.

      That said, this is a great piece otherwise. I hope you’ll link to parts two and three in this post. I don’t want to push off too many other posts on The Daily Radical

      "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
      • arendt (1432 posts)
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        7. Thanks for adding to DR.

        I spent half an hour responding to your post – and when I clicked send, it vanished into outer space. (Looked like the window I had open had not registered that I had been logged out, so that when I said send, the window was no longer connected to JPR.) I’ve been screwed that way before. I just forgot to take my own advice and copy the post before sending it.

        I sweated blood trying to be civil and factual in my response. I am just not in the mood to recreate that post at this minute. I will eventually get around to responding. Please don’t take my silence one way or the other.

        • Marym625 (26488 posts)
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          29. I replied at to the OP below.

          Thank you!

          "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
      • grouchomarxist (240 posts)
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        59. that's wonderful marym. thanks for taking an active role.

        i really look forward to seeing what y’all are able to accomplish!

        • Marym625 (26488 posts)
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          60. Thank you!

          Going to make an announcement this afternoon that, I think, is a YUUGE step for the JackpineRadicals family!

          "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • GZeusH (2225 posts)
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      5. They are REPUBLICAN strategies

      This is what Republicans do when they don’t want to do the work of the people: delude (the votes aren’t there for impeachment), demagogue, and discuss ad nauseum.  They’ve been at it for a long time, and Hillary and the DNC are converts to their modus operandi.

      Bernie had to run last year to show what a real progressive, what a New Deal Democrat really is.  He was much too polite to call out our politics for what it has become:  bullshit jai alai.  But by just staying on message, he pointed out what we could become, what we need to be doing.  For my part, when I see one of those posts pushing a neocon strategy, I’m going to call bullshit on it.

      Maybe we need a bullshit button to sit right beside the recommend one.

      Policy:  The mistaken notion that bossy people have that they can influence other people's behavior through majority rule.
      • arendt (1432 posts)
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        9. Yep. Big money has bought control of both parties.

        Sanderistas actually have more in common with screwed over white collar workers than they do with the corporate slime in the DNC.

        But, money controls the chokepoints of our political system. Witness the garbage the DNC is spouting in the fraud lawsuit – that they can do as they please.

        The DNC and the GOP corporate bagmen are coordinating this Kabuki bullshit about Russian inteference and Comey, the Martyr to keep the sheeple distracted from all the disgusting legislation and appointments that are being rammed through. If the Democrats were doing their job, they’d be fighting all those horrible initiatives, instead of spending what minimal political capital they have on a doomed-to-fail impeachment.

        Trump, Russians, Comey is one gigantic smokescreen for the conservative eviseration of the middle class and of our democracy.

    • Green Dog Dem (3276 posts)
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      6. Funny you should mention The Family. Guess who else is in it?

      Bill Clinton’s wife. Her name has slipped my memory for the moment. 

      Aloha! KamaAina in the hale (house).
      • arendt (1432 posts)
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        8. Yes indeed. Thanks for a point I left out to keep a complex post focussed. n/t

        • MistaP (6492 posts)
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          13. also Honduras's Gustavo Alvarez Martinez and El Salvador's Vides Casanova!

          http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/ (Third Way = Bell Curve)
    • Jan Boehmermann (4235 posts)
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      10. I'm glad you posted this in three parts…..

      Because somehow I missed the first two.  But I went back and found them.

      Highly recommend all three posts!  Thanks!

    • Salemcourt (578 posts)
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      11. Great post.

      I also think that “Russia, Russia, Russia” ………………………………….is just like George Bush

      saying “Terror, Terror, Terror (see Robert Fisk’s Talk) “……………………………propaganda of the worst sort.

      • NJOCK (594 posts)
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        57. Nice analogy Salem!!!

        Love it.

        “The first revolution is when you change your mind about how you look at things, and see there might be another way to look at it that you have not been shown. What you see later on is the results of that, but that revolution, that change that takes place will not be televised.” -Gil Scott-Heron
    • peacecorps (3908 posts)
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      12. Don't impeach Trump no matter what he does because … well, Pence.

      Donald will be happy to hear this. It gives him free rein to do anything he wants without fear of impeachment.

      Maybe Nixon should have fought to keep Agnew. Perhaps he would not have been impeached for Watergate. Once Agnew was gone and Ford (who was much more acceptable as a president) was in office, Nixon fate was sealed. Trump will not make that mistake. Pence is his impeachment insurance.

      • arendt (1432 posts)
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        16. Another flawed take on Watergate

        You can’t fix this by getting rid of only Pence. The GOP own the succession as far down as you care to reach. The GOP don’t have an insurance policy; they own the insurance company. Are you going to impeach your way down the chain of succession? Even if you could, which is ludicrous, all you would accomplish is to make the Dems look like they won’t play the game until they get to pick the other team’s lineup.

        Your analogy resembles saying that because I drilled through a half inch of plywood (Agnew), I can just as easily drill through six inches of steel (the GOP lock on everything).

        You are on a Watergate nostalgia trip. Wake up.

        • peacecorps (3908 posts)
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          17. Trump will never be impeached but I am sure one progressive who will not

          go out of my way to reassure Trump that we are too weak and afraid to even consider the idea of impeachment.

          I agree that focusing on impeachment as a plausible strategy is a waste of effort. There are many more effective ways to oppose conservatism coming from the White House. I don’t see that telling Trump that we won’t oppose him in this way or that way, serves any useful purpose other that to telegraph weakness – not usually a successful political strategy.

          • arendt (1432 posts)
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            18. I wish Trump were gone, too. But only if we can get the GOP out of the way…

            with him.

            The whole point of this 3-parter was to get people to abandon strategies that are not going to work, no matter how high-minded, idealistic, or satisfying they might be.

            The progressives are under assault inside their own party, and the strategies I am calling out are strategies designed by the corpo-Dems to hamstring the progressives, not to stop the GOP. They claim these stupid strategies are essential, and demand that we “unify” around (i.e., surrender to) them.

            I understand how everyone is angry and frustrated and wants to do something, anything. But the solutions on offer from the corpo-Dems are suicidal – like running into no man’s land to bring back a wounded comrade. The end result is that you will have died honorably, but pointlessly, in a futile gesture.

            • hollys mom (907 posts)
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              21. go far enough down the line of succession and you get pelosi, heh.

              Personally, I had no real problem with Gerald Ford, now if you can get an acceptable person in Vice president (perhaps Pence’s wife wold not allow him to be president because there are women as heads of state in other countries!!!) Don’t want lyin’ Ryan there ore McConnell either.  I think most of the cabinet would go with Trump a lot of them are involved as well.  but how far down do we have to go?  Certainly not Betsy DeVois. ha ha ha . possibly the only person worse than Trump,. although most are not satisfactory to me.  We need a gerald ford out.

              • arendt (1432 posts)
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                22. I can accept a "Gerald Ford out"

                Just want to point out that Gerry was a member of the Warren Commission. He was part of that travesty, and proved he could keep his mouth shut for TPTB. Not saying that he was a bad guy. Just saying that no one gets to be President unless he is a proven elitist or has been proven to be loyal to the elitists.

                • hollys mom (907 posts)
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                  26. I don't know what pressures the warren commission was under, but I know a lot

                  of well respected politicians were on it.  I would not be surprised if some day we hears some buried stuff.

    • Herman4747 (1347 posts)
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      14. Impeachment does NOT "merely removes a loose cannon named Trump"

      That would be conviction in the Senate.  We recall that Bill Clinton was impeached by the House, but he was not convicted in the Senate.

      Conviction in the Senate requires two-thirds of all Senators.  That is extremely UNLIKELY TO HAPPEN.

      By going for impeachment, though, the Democrats and Independents send a message loud and clear that Trump’s criminal behavior cannot be tolerated.

      trekagainsttrump
      • arendt (1432 posts)
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        15. "Send them a message" = "write them a stern letter" it.wouldnt.make.a.difference

        Do you not understand that the Democrats are practically powerless?

        Instead of playing this grandstanding game, they should be making peace with the progressives so that they can hold together enough votes to slow down the GOP – no matter which GOP is president.

        • Herman4747 (1347 posts)
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          32. Can they not do two things at once????

          In addition, where I come from silence in a matter like this amounts to consent.  Fortunately, I doubt that the Democratic politicians will follow your advice and not speak out against Republican criminality.  If only just for posterity.

          trekagainsttrump
          • arendt (1432 posts)
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            35. Speaking out and proving to be powerless does the cause no good.

            Instead of standing in traffic and getting run over, the Democrats need to lower their sites to slowing down the GOP juggernaut – sort of guerilla war tactics.

            The guaranteed-to-fail grrandstanding you endorse will simply turn voters off more from the ineffectual Dems.

            • Herman4747 (1347 posts)
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              37. And what is it that you endorse?

              To remain silent, while Republican criminality goes on.  And you think to do otherwise is to fail.

              You might find these quotes to be useful:

              “Nothing strengthens authority so much as silence.”
              ― Leonardo da Vinci

              “If I were to remain silent, I’d be guilty of complicity.”
              ― Albert Einstein

              “To sin by silence, when they should protest, makes cowards of men.”
              ― Ella Wheeler Wilcox

              “Not only will we have to repent for the sins of bad people; but we also will have to repent for the appalling silence of good people.”
              ― Martin Luther King Jr.

              trekagainsttrump
              • arendt (1432 posts)
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                38. To get rid of the corrupt DNC leadership and fight effectively

                All you offer is surrender to the DNC primary riggers and Clinton lovers.

                You try to dress that up with some idealstic crapola. But, all it is is another demand for people to obey the DNC and do what they say.

                • Herman4747 (1347 posts)
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                  40. So politicians should not strive to be idealistic, because to do so…

                  would be seeking “idealistic crapola”???  And just how precisely is speaking out against Trump malfeasance “surrendering to Clinton lovers”???  Can you please explain that?

                  trekagainsttrump
                  • arendt (1432 posts)
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                    41. its about the DNC, and all your bleating about idealism can't hide their crimes.

                    When the DNC calls for idealism, watch out.

                    How about the idealism that says the Democratic Party shouldn’t be run by election-rigging felons?

                    • Herman4747 (1347 posts)
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                      42. So if as you allege this "DNC" calls for idealism, then one

                      shouldn’t be idealistic??? Peculiar logic you got there, buddy.

                      trekagainsttrump
                      • arendt (1432 posts)
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                        43. Oh, this is pathetic. You refuse to go to details, just keep making general…

                        statements.

                        I called you about the DNC, and you retreat to the lofty heights of idealism.

                        Once again, you have no facts, only rhetoric.

                        We are done, again.

                        Come back when you are willing to debate facts instead of lobbing generalizations.

            • doh1304 (423 posts)
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              58. I' with arendt (no surprise considering the name)

              Standing up to evil, even when the cause is hopeless, has merit, but “standing up to evil”, when really you are reinforcing evil, is evil. Impeachig Trump, like the Clinton impeachment,will only strengthen him.

    • HIP56948 (2994 posts)
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      19. I believe a lot of us would not like to see Trump impeached but the scary part..

      …of the whole scenario is Mr. Trump may very well bring the end of his presidency down all by himself.

      Love your post!

      • arendt (1432 posts)
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        20. Best scenario is that he keeps "twisting in the wind" until 2018…

        without starting WW3 in the process.

        In that scenario, the progressives might be able to finish discrediting the DNC crowd because their failure to impeach, failure to prove Russian interference, and love for Comey are more mistakes on top of the disastrous Clinton campaign and the decades long loss of elected  offices across all levels and branches of government.

        At some point, these corrupt losers will lose credibility with the Dem rank and file.

    • senz (5386 posts)
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      23. Great OP, but I think you're leaving something out

      when you put it this way:

      I cannot fathom the Democrats for {Pence, Ryan,…whichever GOPer} strategy of impeachment. Democrats do not gain any political power from impeachment. The government remains completely in GOP hands –

      The fundamental struggle is not between “Democrats” and “Republicans.”   The neocons and corporate globalists (including the CIA) who want Trump out of the way are beyond political party.  They have an agenda.  Most of the Democratic elite are on board with it and many Republicans as well.  Its goal is global corporate hegemony (which spells the end of democracy).  It is being conducted both militarily via interventionist wars and economically via trade agreements that remove sovereignty from elected governments and hand it to corporations.  That is a coup, and it is already happening.  This is why they wanted Hillary Clinton; she is 100% on board with the entire thing, both fronts.

      Donald Trump has long opposed NAFTA, TPP, etc., and interventionist wars.  This puts him completely at odds with corporate neocon globalists.  75 days into his administration, they managed to break his antiwar resolve, and the last I heard, he was rethinking his opposition to NAFTA. So he is weak.  But he doesn’t appear to be solidly, intellectually, emotionally gung ho with their agenda, so they’re probably not sure they can count on him. Plus, he’s clumsy and unpredictable.  They can advance their plans much, much more quickly and smoothly with a Pence or a Ryan.  Of course, Hillary would have been perfect, as were Obama and Bush.

      So to ask why the Democrats would want him impeached is to ignore the deeper alliances of which the Democratic leadership is fully on board.

      The real battle is between the 1% and the 99%.  Amazingly enough, Trump has demonstrated a surprising degree of sympathy with the plight of the 99% and made moves in their favor while maintaining most of the traditional Republican attitudes and goals.

    • tonyl (964 posts)
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      24. One of the reasons that Impeachment should be 'off the table' is ..

      that THAT line of thinking is myopic. It focusses on the effect, not the cause. The real cause seems ‘institutional’; removing one egregious individual merely makes way for the next. From my perspective, it could quite easily be argued that the cancer the world has suffered (in the form of the US Government) began right after world war II and there has not been a single administration that has NOT inflicted itself on the rest of the world (to the detriment of the rest of humanity) – with the possible exception of the Carter administration,  and while that was happening, there has been a gradual diminution in the character of civil administration in the US itself.

      Ultimately, the degradation was fuelled by the lust for money and power.

      Pity, with such a fine Constitution (absent the 2nd Amendment); it was all downhill from there.

      Barring a major overhaul of the various layers of administration, including the way elections are conducted, it is hard to see how the US is going to change, but change it must! The world cannot afford it’s continuing behaviour and neither (it seems) can the citizen of the US.

      Because you cant have integrity occasionally
      • Betty Karlson (4043 posts)
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        44. That cancer would have started with th Bretton Woods agreement.

        Which goes all the way back to 1944. Even John Maynard Keynes already warned us about it. And obviously, his advice has been ignored ever since.

        "Someone hacks the DNC allowing all of America to see how the DNC operates as one of the most corrupt political machines in national history. Ergo, Hillary Clinton should be installed as President by judicial fiat. And if you do not agree to this scheme you deserve to be brought up on charges of treason because fascism." - NUGrrl, december 2016 “Once a person has been determined to be an UNTRUSTWORTHY LIAR, their pretend stances on important issues are simply not relevant to rational discussion.” – Ida Briggs, September 2016
        • tonyl (964 posts)
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          58. That is what I had in mind when I posted ..

          but I didn’t want to go off at a tangent on economics. To reiterate; the various arms of administration (starting with the electoral system, health, education, justice, police forces, legislative bodies and so much more) all degraded and corrupted. As I have noted elsewhere on this site, the degradation is systemic. This is why, it seems to me, when we rail against the actions of individuals, it ends up looking like an exercise in futility (like replacing the deckchairs on the Titanic). Today, it’s Trump but look at who he replaced!! It’s the systems that must be changed.

          It is clear that the rest of the world will no longer allow the Bretton Woods agreements to remain unchallenged (witness the recent Chinese showcasing of their One Belt One Road initiatives). And not before time!! The faceless beneficiaries of the accrued wealth via Bretton Woods will not give up easily and this may well lead to war.

          I think that an economic correction cannot be far off because the rest of the world knows that the economic emperor has no clothes.

          Because you cant have integrity occasionally
    • d3lic (1157 posts)
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      27. Bernie Sanders

      Bernie Sanders responds to Trump firing James Comey: ‘What is the administration hiding?’
      Democrat senator is concerned the President is covering up possible collusion with Russia

      https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/bernie-sanders-comey-fired-trump-russia-investigation-fbi-director-a7727326.html

      ““Donald Trump’s decision to fire FBI Director James Comey raises serious questions about what his administration is hiding,” Mr Sanders said in a statement.

      “Why did President Trump fire the person leading the investigation into possible collusion between his campaign and the Russian government?”

      Mr Sanders said that he was troubled by the timing of the firing of Mr Comey, which came a day after former acting Attorney General Sally Yates testified that she had warned the White House about former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn’s ties to Russia. Mr Comey was scheduled to appear before the Senate Intelligence Committee several days later.

      “President Trump has repeatedly taken steps to kill inquiries into Russia’s involvement in the US election,” Vermont Senator Mr Sanders said.

      “It is clear that whomever President Trump handpicks to lead the FBI will not be able to objectively carry out this investigation. We need an independent investigation into the Trump campaign’s ties to Russia.””

      (end quote)

      I don’t agree that Sanders and those who have opinions/instincts similar to Sanders don’t make the grade as “progressives” because of this, whereas Trump and the Trumpers are totally on the “progressive” side and are paving the progressive super highway.

      Trump’s firing of Comey, any FBI investigations of emails or Flynn or etc., the congressional hearings on Russian hacking, are all just current events and I don’t see how there’s a damn thing that common citizens posting on message boards, tweeting away and so on, have any say about any of it either before or after the fact (this goes double about any possible impeachment, which depends entirely on Republican politicians). I don’t see how the various opinions people have about these events, which no doubt change as ever weirder events pile up, distinguish them as progressive vs DNC/neocon patsies.

      • arendt (1432 posts)
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        31. Really confusing how you quoted your ENTIRE last post into this one.

        Makes it hard to tell which arguments I already debunked and which are new. But let me pick a few points I think are new.

        Excuse me, but none of my strategies were “independent investigation”. This investigation crap is just a subset of the whole “impeachment uber alles” bum’s rush. I  said that I would only support a truly independent investigation, one where Assange was called as a witness, one where the other side got discovery inside the “secret” records. Without complete discovery, an investigation is a farce. The CIA will leak what makes it look good, and bury what makes it look bad. It would be Warren Commission 2.

        I stand by my disgust at trying to use James Comey for any progressive purpose. The man is a proven snake, and could just as easily screw the Dems as Trump – depending on who paid him the most or twisted him the hardest.

        • d3lic (1157 posts)
          Profile photo of d3lic Banned

          34. Sanders: "We need an independent investigation into…

          “We need an independent investigation into the Trump campaign’s ties to Russia.”

          arendt:

          “To support any of these strategies is to undermine progressive policies. People who say that they reject “2 out of 3” of these bad ideas don’t get any slack from me.”

          “You have to be willfully blind not to see that using Comey to get Trump will continue to hide the crimes of the Clintons”

          “For me, people defending any leg of this triad of destruction are defending all of the legs. There are many such defenses posted on this board. It aggravates me that a board, which is widely derided by the corporate media (we are “fake news:) – not to mention SV, TOS – as screamingly leftwing, is full of posts and comments that catapult this neocon/neoliberal propaganda”

          Sanders:

          “Donald Trump’s decision to fire FBI Director James Comey raises serious questions about what his administration is hiding,”

          “Why did President Trump fire the person leading the investigation into possible collusion between his campaign and the Russian government?”

          “President Trump has repeatedly taken steps to kill inquiries into Russia’s involvement in the US election,”

          “It is clear that whomever President Trump handpicks to lead the FBI will not be able to objectively carry out this investigation. We need an independent investigation into the Trump campaign’s ties to Russia.”

          d3lic:

          I don’t agree that Sanders and those who have opinions/instincts similar to Sanders don’t make the grade as “progressives” because of this, whereas Trump and the Trumpers are totally on the “progressive” side and are paving the progressive super highway.

          Trump’s firing of Comey, any FBI investigations of emails or Flynn or etc., the congressional hearings on Russian hacking, are all just current events and I don’t see how there’s a damn thing that common citizens posting on message boards, tweeting away and so on, have any say about any of it either before or after the fact (this goes double about any possible impeachment, which depends entirely on Republican politicians). I don’t see how the various opinions people have about these events, which no doubt change as ever weirder events pile up, distinguish them as progressive vs DNC/neocon patsies.

           

           

      • Blackspade (3166 posts)
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        51. This hits my biggest issue with Sanders.

        What does he and the rest of the Democratic establishment mean by collusion anyway? By collusion do they mean rigging the election? Forgiving his debts in exchange for sanction relief? Working with the Russians on Syria and Ukraine? So what is it?

        All the talk of collusion without any sort of evidence underscores how weak their argument is against Trump. Fishing Expeditions in the hopes of finding wrongdoing are not politically viable or legally sound practices.

    • Marym625 (26488 posts)
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      28. Thank you

      I’m very glad for your edit. I really appreciate it. I also agree with you.

      I won’t pretend to know the ins and outs of the mob in New York but I do know a little, and I mean a very little, about the mob in Chicago and Chicago Heights.

      A little off topic story: when I was in my mid teens to early 20s, I worked for my aunt and uncle. They owned a security company in Chicago Heights, IL. I mean security as in patrols, guards, etc. I actually worked as a security guard at a roof shingle manufacturer. All 5′ 2″, 98 lbs of me. Then I worked in the office doing accounting.

      My aunt and uncle decided to sell the business. Unbeknownst to me, Albert Tacco was looking into purchasing it.

      One afternoon I was followed home by a Chicago Heights cop. All the way to my house in Homewood. That was a good 3 miles outside of Chicago Heights. I was obviously supposed to see this. He made no attempt whatsoever to try and hide he was following me.

      Tacco controlled everything there.

      Pritzker ended up buying it for his slimy friend. I knew back then that Jimmy Pritzker, now Jennifer Pritzker, was transgender. I’m glad she was, eventually, able to be who she is. But I tell ya, she’s a creep besides a cheap asswipe.

      Sorry, got really far off topic there!

      Anyway, I completely agree with the impeachment stuff. And it will never happen anyway. They wouldn’t even impeach Bush for war crimes and other horrific things. Unless the plutocrats want him gone, he’s in for four years.

      Thank you again. I do appreciate your edit

      "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
      • arendt (1432 posts)
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        33. As you point out, the mob can own entire towns & be very hard to avoid.

        That is why I am inoculating people against buying that ties to Russian mobsters automatically mean ties to the Russian government.

        Interesting story, yours. I am vaguely familiar with the Pritzkers. Apparently, the founding Pritzker had been an accountant for some branch of the Chicago mob. They own the Hyatt Hotel chain, and Barack Obama’s ass.

        When I was a kid, I used to take the bus past a Hyatt  on Oakton? or Dempster?, near Cicero Ave.,  in Lincolnwood. (Its gone now.) One day in 1983, I pick up the newspaper and read that Alan Dorfmann was whacked in the elevator at that Hyatt. At the time, nobody made the connection between Hyatt/Pritzker and mob killings. To the news, it was merely the scene of a hit; not intimately connected to the hit.

        The Purple Hotel in Lincolnwood that is being torn down Tuesday, was both famous and notorious as a mob hangout, and in one case, a gangland murder site.

        The Purple Hotel may have been many things to many people, but it spelled the end for the Chicago mob as we know it.

        On a bitter January day in 1983, the suburban landmark that was famous for its purple exterior, all of the sudden became infamous for the color blood red when six shots were fired into the head of outfit-connected businessman Alan Dorfman.

        Dorfman’s mob pedigree went back to Teamsters boss Jimmy Hoffa, who had appointed him to run the union’s pension fund.

        Lincolnwood’s Purple Hotel Witnessed Gangland Murder, End of Chicago Mob Era

        Notice that they don’t even mention that, when the hit happened, the hotel was a Hyatt. Wouldn’t want “notorious mob hangout” and Pritzker in the same news story.

        So, I would be more surprised not to find Trump ties to the mob, than to find them.

         

        • arendt (1432 posts)
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          36. Come to think of it, if they started digging, I bet Obama is pretty mobbed up.

          However, its “clean”, old mob money that has been gentrified.

          It was sad to watch the media give Obama a free pass for appointing Penny Pritzker as Secretary of ?Commerce?. Penny was an early innovator in subprime mortgages. She was doing those out of the South Shore Bank, a respected bank in a black community. South Shore burned down before the 2008 crash, ruining the community. But Penny walked away with another bundle. Accounting fraud – it runs in the Pritzker family.

          Then, there is Obama’s disgusting chief of staff, Rahm Emmanuel, the mayor Chicago. AFAIK, there isn’t one genuine constituency in the city that likes the man. He was put in power and is kept in power by the big money in town, and all his dealings reward the big money at the expense of the citizenry. It would stretch belief that, in a town with the rich history of crime it has, Rahm is “clean”.

          People always wondered where the money to keep the unknown, Obama, fighting the Clinton machine for two years in 2006-8 came from. Many speculated Wall St, because of his later favors to them. But Chicago mob money is another possibilty.

          Since everyone is so keen to investigate mob ties, maybe we should look into Obama’s.

           

        • Marym625 (26488 posts)
          Profile photo of Marym625 Admin

          45. My aunt and uncle were extremely wealthy

          They were “friends” with the older Pritzkers, Robert and his brother. Name escapes me at the moment.

          They were all out to dinner one night at Beverly Country Club. Mrs Pritzker made some nasty comment to my Aunt about notbeing able to have good help from the Irish. These were my aunt and uncle Patrick and Eileen McCarthy.

          "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • fluff (589 posts)
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      47. If Trump committed an impeachable offense, he should be impeached.

      Politics be damned.

      Remember, remember the 6th of November 2018.
    • ThomPaine (4554 posts)
      Profile photo of ThomPaine Moderator

      48. That goes without saying and doesn't disagree with the OP.

      As I read the OP, he is saying that Democrats should waste their time pursuing impeachment.  While I am sure the Neo-Libs love running around with their hair on fire screaming “Impeach the bastard” because they want revenge.  The real Democrats should recognize we have a lot of work to do to end the reign of those very Neo-Libs.  The saying that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” does not work here.  Trump is our enemy but so are Clinton and the Neo-Liberals.

      aka rhett o rick.     The rich treat us like ants. They may avoid stepping on us, but if our home is in the way of their new swimming pool, we can kiss our ants goodbye.
    • Marym625 (26488 posts)
      Profile photo of Marym625 Admin

      49. Sheandother Pritzkers paid $0.50 on the dollar

      At the Savings& loan in downers grove back during that major ripoff. They’re intimately involved in that.

      There’s so much crap that I don’t think it will ever all be known

      "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • arendt (1432 posts)
      Profile photo of arendt

      50. And you have hard evidence of this? Or you just want a fishing expedition? n/t

    • Ohio Barbarian (5337 posts)
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      51. Trump has definitely committed and impeachable offense, in my view-Treason.

      When he said or tweeted that the Constitution was an archaic document and “very bad” for the American people, after he took an oath to uphold and defend that same Constitution, against all enemies, foreign and domestic. My childhood Congressman, Henry B. Gonzalez, would have drafted Articles of Impeachment the next day.

      Of course, he did the same thing with Reagan after Reagan had clearly broken the law with Iran-Contra, and nothing came of it.

      It doesn’t matter, though. It’s far more likely that he’ll eventually just have a temper tantrum, resign, pack up and go back to his resorts, real estate scams, and reality TV shows. Because he’s a fucking spoiled child.

      Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.