Time to get serious about Covid19

Homepage | Forums | Main Forums | General Discussion | Time to get serious about Covid19

Viewing 16 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #333943
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,147

      There are two options for maintaining any level of socioeconomic stability during this crisis. At least, there are only two serious ones that I am aware of.

      1.
      The first one, favored by President Trump, is to let it run its course. To basically throw up our hands and say “Its here, its going to infect everyone eventually, we can’t contain it. Let it burn.” Now there are problems with that option, chief among them (in my opinion) is that hospitals are already being overwhelmed (see Texas – two counties with hospitals at capacity already). Systems like ours require certain fundamental things to continue operating – one of them is hospitals, it is medical care. If hospitals cannot provide it due to being overwhelmed by virus cases (WHO estimates state that 20% of covid19 cases require hospitalization and oxygen – that’s a LOT for America) then we are looking at multiple disasters.

      To briefly summarize some of it – the body count will pile up. Nurses and Doctors and other healthcare professionals (and anyone who works in hospitals) will be exposed to this virus as well – and there is no 100% guarantee of protection from exposure. There will not be enough ICU beds or ventilators – and people could very well die in the hallways and waiting rooms.

      In a lot of areas (particularly small towns and such like where I live) the hospitals are the primary employers. If they cease operation due to lack of staff, funding, equipment, beds and so on, employees will eventually stop going to work, hospitals will close – they might be taken over by elements of the military or local authorities… that is a bit unclear, especially given that much of our military is over seas.

      Look at it like like dominoes – one falls, knocking several others down. Losing the largest employers means losing income, jobs and so on and so forth. Eventually, this is disastrous in the most serious way. It would effect every part of infrastructure, ultimately on a vastly destructive, chaotic scale.

      2.
      To start taking the virus seriously. This would require some rather severe changes and is not certain to work – but probably more likely to keep things running. State and local quarantines will need to be enforced, more testing will need to be implemented – and in cases where the virus numbers are very high, there will need to be various types of lockdown and shutdown.

      Among the intelligent things to do here would be to utilize our technology and our workforce for the delivery of basic needs and supplies. It would also be wise for there to be a freeze placed on utility bills, rents and mortgages. Or – to provide a type of universal basic income for people to be able to pay for their basic needs while this crisis is ongoing.

      The next part of this would be to heavily incentive and subsidize those working in places that are deemed essential. This means grocery stores, hospitals, state and federal agencies required to maintain the safety net and so on and so forth. It WILL mean many businesses closed, it WILL mean jobs lost for good. Without a dramatically improved welfare program, it would mean skyrocketing poverty, unemployment, hunger and death. Plus all the related fun stuff.

      This also would mean a lot of people re-examining their philosophies on what it means to be American. Is our value determined by our employment? If so, then this option will not work. If it is not – or if that is in question, it is possible. Otherwise there will be mass protests and riots – which we already have anyway. Consider though, that waves of evictions (we are looking at like tens of millions after the summer) are coming up very, very fast.

      ****

      Finally, there is a need for some level of honesty in our conversation. Congress, the Senate – even the President – none of these people are stupid. Seriously, they aren’t. They know what the options are, but due to partisan bickering, various lobbyists and financial interests, they are fooling around and playing the fiddle while they should be taking their jobs rather more seriously.

      Very few are talking about what needs to happen – and even in the midst of crisis there are various “breaks” scheduled for congress and the Senate. Frankly, none of them should leave until this is decided. If they do – they should lose all pay and benefits, like unemployed Americans are losing.

      There is no perfect solution. There is only a matter of which one will cause more destruction – and which one has a better hope of maintaining our society.

      The decisions being made in the weeks and months to come will determine the fate of tens of millions of people, of lives – of pretty much every aspect of our lives – including whether we continue to live them.

      The amount of cowardice both in government and in media, at this time, is mind boggling. Time to step up or shutup – all of them.

    • #333953
      ThouArtThat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,544

      @davidthegnome

      Hi david,

      Nice contrast on the essential aspects of the dilemma.

      One suspects the 1% (ruling elite) have chosen a hybrid approach, either passively or actively.  Their reasoning is probably along these lines.

      We could choose to do the “right thing” in option 2; but, we would be fighting generations of social conditioning and decades of political propaganda we (the 1%) created to maintain our hegemony.  Morally preferable but ultimately against our (the 1%) interests.

      Or, we could choose to do the “wrong thing” in option 1 which maintains social conditioning stereotypes and propaganda.  Morally inferior but ultimately aligned with our (the 1%) interests.  And pragmatically, since when did we (the 1%) ever really worry about morality.

      So, with our (the 1%) conscience now clear, how do we “manage” the crisis as option 1 while doing just enough of option 2 as necessary to keep from losing our control and hegemony.  Effectively a hybrid approach which manifests as option 3.

      TAT

      “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
      - John F. Kennedy

      "The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it."
      - George Orwell

      "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
      - Jiddu Krishnamurti

      "Sometimes a pessimist is only an optimist with extra information."
      - Idries Shah

      "A riot is the language of the unheard."
      - Martin Luther King

    • #333959
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,147

      @thouartthat

      If you are – then that means the consequences of option 1, as well.  I cannot even fathom how much destruction that will bring down on us.  There is a reason a lot of other Countries are taking lockdown and quarantine very seriously, a reason even our longtime allies in the European Union have banned travel from America.  It isn’t – as some might think – the mortality rate.  The mortality rate, at least for the present, is somewhat lower because we have hospitals, doctors, nurses, treatments of various types available.  If hospitals are overwhelmed, that changes – the mortality rate changes, gets much higher.

      It is not just the virus itself – but everything related to it.  So many things are connected – one will affect the other and many more in so many ways.  I don’t know a whole lot, but I do know that some things are necessary to keep this system going.  Without them, we have chaos.  Without them, we have some version of dystopia, perhaps even anarchy – which would not be nearly so pleasant as some anarchists think.

      Instead of focusing on this, as our leaders ought to be doing… they are fucking with the Chinese Navy, insisting we keep our troops in Germany, in Afghanistan, that we keep our military machine running.  The only way it is going to keep running long-term is if we start bringing them home and stop spending so much on war.

      Given the current makeup of Congress, the Senate, the President… and their various tools, it is likely that you are correct.  At least, the first option is a lot more likely than the second.  Even someone like me, who on occasion speaks to “whom it may concern” is thinking… “God help us all”.

    • #333960
      ravensong
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,222

      Shown Here:
      Introduced in House (05/12/2020)

      Health and Economic Recovery Omnibus Emergency Solutions Act or the HEROES Act

      This bill responds to the COVID-19 (i.e., coronavirus disease 2019) outbreak and its impact on the economy, public health, state and local governments, individuals, and businesses.

      Among other things, the bill

      • provides FY2020 emergency supplemental appropriations to federal agencies;
      • provides payments and other assistance to state, local, tribal, and territorial governments;
      • provides additional direct payments of up to $1,200 per individual;
      • expands paid sick days, family and medical leave, unemployment compensation, nutrition and food assistance programs, housing assistance, and payments to farmers;
      • modifies and expands the Paycheck Protection Program, which provides loans and grants to small businesses and nonprofit organizations;
      • establishes a fund to award grants for employers to provide pandemic premium pay for essential workers;
      • expands several tax credits and deductions;
      • provides funding and establishes requirements for COVID-19 testing and contact tracing;
      • eliminates cost-sharing for COVID-19 treatments;
      • extends and expands the moratorium on certain evictions and foreclosures; and
      • requires employers to develop and implement infectious disease exposure control plans.

      The bill also modifies or expands a wide range of other programs and policies, including those regarding

      • Medicare and Medicaid,
      • health insurance,
      • broadband service,
      • medical product supplies,
      • immigration,
      • student loans and financial aid,
      • the federal workforce,
      • prisons,
      • veterans benefits,
      • consumer protection requirements,
      • the U.S. Postal Service,
      • federal elections,
      • aviation and railroad workers, and
      • pension and retirement plans.

      https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/6800

      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #333962
      ThouArtThat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,544

      @ravensong

      Hi rs,

      Sounds great and is “virtue signalling” par excellence for those that introduced the proposed legislation.  Yet, at the end of the day, history suggests it will never see the light of day.

      TAT

      “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
      - John F. Kennedy

      "The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it."
      - George Orwell

      "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
      - Jiddu Krishnamurti

      "Sometimes a pessimist is only an optimist with extra information."
      - Idries Shah

      "A riot is the language of the unheard."
      - Martin Luther King

    • #333964
      ThouArtThat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,544

      @davidthegnome

      Hi david,

      Yep – option 3 “manages” the situation at the edge of chaos such that the 1% maintain their hegemony whilst not losing complete control.  For example, rolling lock-downs as necessary as the economy is reopened.  Just enough economic disruption to control local contagion while keeping the “grift” flowing to our owners (the 1%).  No more or no less than what is necessary to benefit TPTB.

      Instead of focusing on this, as our leaders ought to be doing… they are fucking with the Chinese Navy, insisting we keep our troops in Germany, in Afghanistan, that we keep our military machine running. The only way it is going to keep running long-term is if we start bringing them home and stop spending so much on war.

      A seeming distraction from the pandemic but in reality all just part of “managing” the empire to benefit the 1% in way or another.

      TAT

      “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
      - John F. Kennedy

      "The further a society drifts from the truth the more it will hate those who speak it."
      - George Orwell

      "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
      - Jiddu Krishnamurti

      "Sometimes a pessimist is only an optimist with extra information."
      - Idries Shah

      "A riot is the language of the unheard."
      - Martin Luther King

    • #333966
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      @ravensong For that matter, Pelosi and Schumer could have gotten that, but they didn’t want it, and the progressive Dems failed us. Now the Democrats are proposing rent relief when they know it will never get through the Turtle’s Senate unless the oligarchy changes its mind. Remember, Pelosi’s husband makes his money off of commercial real estate, so she is looking out for herself.


      @thouartthat
      Accurate analysis. At this point, it’s just virtue-signaling. All Democrats have proven their utter worthlessness on this issue.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

      • #334012
        ravensong
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,222

        at best.  Neither a fact based, nor cogent, argument.  Just smoke.  Sorry OB.  New Democrats may suck, but good arguments need to be honest and factual reality based about how, when, where, and why they suck.  Otherwise, arguments come off like either pro Trump/McConnell Fox News propaganda, or a half-assed attempt at pissing on imaginary SV trolls.  McConnell is a full of shit fascist who has no intention of ever passing any bill that does not almost exclusively benefit wealthy, powerful fascists and Business As Usual.

        During a television interview, Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said that 395 bills sitting in the Senate are not going to be passed.

        On Fox News Friday, anchor Bret Baier asked McConnell if Democrats’ statements about those bills were true and whether they could move forward. McConnell confirmed that it was the case, but also said that proposed legislation would be rejected.

        “It is true,” the senator said. “They’ve been on full left-wing parade over there, trotting out all of their left-wing solutions that are going to be issues in the fall campaign. They’re right. We’re not going to pass those.”

        McConnell explained that the bills would not get passed, because the government is divided. He said that instead they “have to work on things we can agree,” listing government spending, the U.S.-Mexico-Canada free trade agreement, an infrastructure bill, a parks bill and some environmental issues as examples of bills that they may be able to agree on.

        https://www.newsweek.com/mitch-mcconnell-grim-reaper-395-house-bills-senate-wont-pass-1487401

        House Sends Massive Infrastructure Bill To Senate, Where It Has No Path Forward

        The House Wednesday passed a climate-friendly infrastructure bill with $1.5 trillion for everything from roads to broadband that has little chance of being signed into law as written, but is destined to play a starring role in rhetoric and talking points for both parties in the run-up to the presidential election.

        House Republicans have seized relentlessly on the partisan process, saying their views were virtually ignored as the measure was put together. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Wednesday morning ridiculed the bill, calling it “nonsense,” “absurd,” “pure fantasy” and vowing that it will die in the Senate. On top of that, the White House has indicated it would veto the bill.

        Democrats, for their part, did not try to garner Republican involvement in crafting the bill because they said they were convinced that Republicans would not go along with the emissions reductions measures they wanted, which are sprinkled throughout the bill. For instance, the core of the bill — a $494 billion reauthorization of surface transportation programs like roads and bridges — poured drastically more money than usual into Democratic priorities such as trains, transit and electric vehicle charging infrastructure and de-emphasized building new roads.

        The bill, which passed 233-188, is massive in its scope, including money for such varied Democratic priorities as schools, hospitals, housing, broadband, drinking water, storm water, the energy grid and vehicle safety.

        https://www.politico.com/news/2020/07/01/house-infrastructure-bill-347355

         

        “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

        The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
        ~ Unknown

    • #333967
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,147

      @ravensong

      The summary you post sounds good – but the devil, as they say, is in the details.  The bill appears to be around 1800 pages long – and looking at the co-sponsors, they are all democrats and relatively few in number.  Not a single independent or republican, which indicates to me that it has a snowball’s chance in hell of getting through the Senate – not being blocked by McConnell or vetoed by Trump.  While it is by no means as far as I would go or perfect legislation, it would be a hell of a lot better than what is being done at present….

      I fear that @thouartthat is right.  The summary sounds good – but it is unlikely to see the light of day.  Closer to option 2 than to 1 – as far as I can tell.  Even a bibliophile like me isn’t going to read all 1800 pages though.

    • #333971
      ravensong
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,222

      any effective measures to be put in place.

      They refuse to obey laws designed to help stop the spread of the virus.  Most cops are Trump supporters and will not enforce laws designed to help stop the spread of the virus.  Politicians/legislators are either scared shitless of aggressive,  hostile Trump supporters, or, in the case of Republican legislators, do whatever Trump and Trump supporters want, because they need the votes.

      The bottom line is, we are literally at the mercy of really stupid, ignorant people, who are seriously lacking in common sense, and no matter what we do, we can’t fix stupid.  Trump told them that coronavirus is a hoax, and they believe him.

      Thank the goddess this isn’t an Ebola pandemic.  The stupid would kill off the entire population.

      I mostly agree with you, David.  But in Red States we are far more likely to be refused service or get arrested for not wearing shoes in a commercial establishment than we are for not wearing a mask where they are legally required.

      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #333973
      ravensong
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,222

      and refusing to do anything that needs to be done to help working folks deal with all the plain survival ramifications of the virus,

      It is flat out senseless, facepalm idiotic, to blame the House of Representatives for not being able to get the Bill passed, due to the fact that Trump and Republican Senate won’t support it, or even address it.  This is a serious national emergency, and no matter how the House tries to address it, Trump and Republicans will not allow them to do anything.

      Not addressing this at you, David, but it is astounding to see how clueless many people are about how the legislative branches of the government work.  Many appear to believe that all the House has to do is wave a magic wand to get legislation passed.

       

      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #333975
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      Only that the Democrats refused to use leverage when they had it, and that now that they don’t, they blame it all on the Republicans when they are every bit as much to blame for the current situation. Yes, the Republicans are even worse, but if one cannot pay one’s rent and is facing homelessness, one only knows for sure that both parties, and all of our institutions, have failed.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #333978
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,147

      @ravensong

      Maine is… well, an “interesting” state as far as politics go.  We tend to go back and forth between democrats and republicans, when we learn one sucks, go with the other, they suck too, switch and repeat… etc.  I will say though, that Governor Mills is a hell of a lot better than Governor Le Page – especially now.  She’s a blue dog – and I don’t particularly like her or her policies, but she is damn sure better than that old creep.

      I’m not sure whether Maine currently qualifies as red or blue – but my County is definitely red.  No one, as far as I am aware, is enforcing the mask mandate here either.  Every time I have to go somewhere – like the grocery store for example, I see customers and staff not wearing masks – or wearing them, but wearing them below their noses, which defeats the purpose.  It isn’t even a hard thing to do.  Oh, some bitch about is restricting breathing – but if you do it properly you can breathe just fine – assuming you do not have a condition that would make a mask dangerous (which plenty will claim, but few actually have – relatively speaking).

      Just Saturday there were roughly thirty people just across the street (twenty yards away or so?) from us.  The neighbors were having their big fourth of July bash.  I didn’t say anything, because I am the type (well, in real life) to mind my own business.  Still, lots of young and older people mingling, not a mask among the lot of them, way too close together.  It is why I ultimately resisted my family’s pressuring to attend their fourth of july celebration.  Turns out there were a lot more people there than I had been told there were going to be, too – which I kind of figured would be the case.

      No, they aren’t enforcing masks – and they probably aren’t going to.  Realistically speaking, it impossible to do everywhere – but could certainly be done in grocery stores and such to some extent.  The fact that this isn’t happening – that people are frequently making complaints that it isn’t happening – and no one from the local cops to the Governor is actually doing a damn thing about it… well…

      That indicates to me that this thing has a damn good chance to spread here, even in my quiet, tiny corner of the world.  Perhaps we will get amazingly lucky and dodge that bullet… some seem to think we will, but I think they are wrong.  We have many, many people coming up for vacation or for their “summer homes” in Maine.  They are coming primarily from Florida and California… and the state quarantine is not really being enforced.

      I also agree with thanking whatever powers that be that this isn’t Ebola, or something equally as bad.  It is bad enough as it is.  I wonder if the history books will say it was covid19 that broke America.  No.  It was the stupid.

    • #333982
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,147

      @ravensong

      Some of them are making an effort – and I applaud that.  Most of them are not.  They can vote, for instance, to pass a bill that they know will never pass (even if it passes the house – the Senate is unlikely without negotiation) without actually giving a damn, reading it, or even understanding what the policies/legislation is.  I would say that those among the co-sponsors of the heroes act would be some of our best chances for getting things done.  Unfortunately…. the leadership is a lot more centrist… or, lets be honest, right wing – not compared to Trump maybe, but right wing enough.

      I think that if the likes of Pelosi and Schumer organized their fellows and fought for this, it would have a chance.  They would “negotiate” some things out with the Republicans, because they’d have no other choice, but if they wanted it to pass, they would be doing a lot more work – and a lot more in the media to promote this.  So, it is probably not going to happen – it sounds good, but 1800 pages?  Who knows what else is in it.  I’ve got pretty good reading comprehension – and can read a thousand pages a day – but I could not hope to read or understand that unless I spent weeks to do with it, with plenty of help understanding the legal terms.  Even then…

      Generally, when I call out Congress and the Senate, it is more general in nature, but I rarely bother to say “most” because those among them that are useless/greedy/ignorant tend to make up the majority (or at least the leadership) – and ruin the whole process.  That is where Pelosi, Schumer, McConnell and Trump come in – along with a bunch of others.  It is what it is I guess.

      I have no problem with giving credit where it is due – those who sponsored this are at least doing SOMETHING – unlike most of their colleagues.  Unfortunately, it is not nearly enough to make it through the partisan idiocy.

    • #334008
      salemcourt
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,892
    • #334048
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 21,304

      @ravensong They didn’t even try. Period. Now they’re trying, when the only thing that will make the Republicans budge is fear of a real revolution, and they still stupidly believe it can’t happen here. Let’s see what happens if 30 million families are made homeless over the next few months, which will happen if Congress continues to do nothing.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

    • #334075
      not4sale
      Blocked
      • Total Posts: 254

      so now it’s time to get serious?  Everything you posted has been tried and is months old rhetoric that has already been proven not to work with anti-society repukes.  Here’s what’s really happening: 75% of new cases are in red states and the rest of America is just waiting for them to get sick or die so we can get on life.  The dumbing down of republicans has worked, they’re now so dumb they’re purposely engaging in their own self-extinction event.  All the rest of Americans can do is avoid repukes like the plague.  As for jobs/economics, the repukes aka Moscow Mitch will do everything they can to make sure as many Americans go bankrupt as possible, regardless of any bills or legislation that is attempted.

      Welcome to the wild west, the repuke land-o-corruption.

    • #334083
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,147

      @not4sale

      Actually none of it has been tried.  If it had been, we would be having a very different conversation.  There were a couple who pushed for a type of basic income package, but they could not get support from even the democrats.  It wasn’t anti society Republicans – it was that only a few, even among the democrats – bothered to try with a real solution.

      The corporate bailout was and is, in fact, extremely bipartisan.  That is where the money went.  It is still going there.

      For the average person, there is no help – and if 75% of those in red states die, so will those in blue states.

       

Viewing 16 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.