'To Protect Our Democracy,' Tuesday Night Rallies Planned In All 50 States to Demand Congress Votes to Impeach Trump

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  • #238754

    ravensong
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 1,290
    @ravensong

    At more than 500 rallies planned for Tuesday evening, hundreds of thousands of Americans are expected to call on the U.S. House to vote to impeach President Donald Trump.

    The rallies will take place at congressional offices and other public spaces, the night before the House is expected to vote on two articles of impeachment accusing Trump of abusing his power when he pressured the Ukrainian president to investigate former Vice President Joe Biden and obstructing Congress by stonewalling its investigation.

    “The facts are uncontested,” organizers said Saturday. “An extensive investigation turned up phone records, transcripts, and first hand witness testimony that prove Trump demanded Ukraine interfere in the 2020 election on his behalf before he’d give them critical military aid or a White House meeting.”
    ———–
    At least 527 events were planned for 5:30pm local time on Tuesday, with people in every state in the nation planning to rally.

    https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/12/15/protect-our-democracy-tuesday-night-rallies-planned-all-50-states-demand-congress

    For “Nobody Is Above The Law” Events near you:

    Events are called for Tuesday, December 17th at 5:30 p.m. local time, but check your local event for a confirmed time and location. Numerous reports indicate that the House will vote on impeachment on Wednesday. December 18th.

    https://www.impeach.org/event/impeach-and-remove-attend/search/

     

    Promote Freedom From Religion, and Separation of Church and State.

    See how much you will pay for Healthcare under Bernie Sanders Medicare for All plan:
    https://www.mfacalc.com/
    Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues! ~ Bernie

  • #238759

    Ohio Barbarian
    Moderator
    • Total Posts: 8,833
    @ohiobarbarian

    Count me out. Right now, I’d just as soon see impeachment fail in the House since that is the foregone conclusion in the Senate anyway, and would have the additional benefit of allowing Bernie to remain on the campaign trail. If it does go to the Senate, I hope McConnell does his quick show trial and acquit thing so we can get the same result just a little bit later.

    A long trial is the worst of all possible worlds.

    We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

    • #238766

      ravensong
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 1,290
      @ravensong

      @ohiobarbarian

      That’s too bad.  It’s important for people to stand up for democracy against Trump’s obvious authoritarian fascism.

      Zappa wrote these lines about Nixon, but they are far more applicable to Trump

      And in your dreams you can see yourself
      As a prophet saving the world
      The words from your lips (‘I am not a crook’)
      I just can’t believe you are such a fool.”

      Promote Freedom From Religion, and Separation of Church and State.

      See how much you will pay for Healthcare under Bernie Sanders Medicare for All plan:
      https://www.mfacalc.com/
      Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues! ~ Bernie

      • #238805

        jerry611
        Member
        • Total Posts: 534
        @jerry611

        Unfortunately people don’t stand up for the right reasons. They will demand Trump be impeached and then vote for the biparty establishment and hand power to the elites and rich.

      • #238823

        Voltairine
        Member
        • Total Posts: 1,414
        @voltairine

        This particular purely partisan impeachment attempt on very weak arguments is no less authoritarian fascism. In fact, this impeachment is Neocon attack against Zelensky and people of Ukraine, giving direct support to the cartoon nazies of Ukraine that are trying to prevent Zelensky from building better relations with Russia.

        You’ve been conned again Ravensong, neoconned to support the actual neonazies and fascist that you pretend to oppose.

        Aloha!

        • #238833

          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 8,833
          @ohiobarbarian

          @voltairine WTF? Once again, you conflate neoliberals and neocons, but that’s neither here nor there. How is supporting military aid to Ukraine undermining the Ukrainians? That’s what the neoliberals are doing here. Oh, I’m sure they don’t want Zelensky to make some sort of a deal with Putin that they don’t like, but that’s a separate issue.

          It was Trump who withheld military aid to Ukraine in order to pressure this new president, who was elected because everyone else sucked as far as Ukrainians were concerned, into announcing that he was investigating Joe Biden just to make Biden look more corrupt. That’s all this impeachment thing is about because the Democrats wouldn’t let it be about anything else.

          We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

          With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

          • #238841

            Voltairine
            Member
            • Total Posts: 1,414
            @voltairine

            Once again you are trying to make nonfactual distinction between neocons and neoliberals, military and economic wings of the same beast. If if goes “RussiaRussia”, it’s a Neocon.

            The witnesses and Pelosi herself made in their own words that this is about foreign policy “consensus” of fighting against Russia in Ukraine, which Trump in their view was not committed strongly enough. Neocons trying to prevent Ukraine from ending the civil war and normalizing relations with Russia – which is their only realistic option to have an economy – is not a separate issue, it’s at the heart of the matter.

            Pelosi: “This is about Russia… All roads lead to Putin, understand THAT” (6:12):

            To prevent Zelensky making good with Putin, the most important allies of Neocons are the Banderista nazies of Ukraine and their “red lines” against Zelensky doing what 70% voted him to do, under the threat of another violent nazi coup. Yovanovitch, a Neocon originally promoted by Dubya administration, testified that she has good relations with the nazies. Ergo, people taking side with the DNC neocons are taking side with as nazi as nazi can get.

            Aloha!

            • #238871

              sadoldgirl
              Member
              • Total Posts: 577
              @sadoldgirl

              Thanks for that video; it clears up a lot!

            • #238902

              Ohio Barbarian
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 8,833
              @ohiobarbarian

              And I think you are oversimplifying things, a trait I’ve found common in anarchists. And I’m not taking Nancy Pelosi’s or the Democratic establishment’s “side.” Your implication is an insult.

              We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

              With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

              • #238907

                Voltairine
                Member
                • Total Posts: 1,414
                @voltairine

                I think I’m encapsulating the essential meaning very well, which is easier from anarchist point of view that requires less cognitive dissonance compartmentalization that comes with authoritarian conditioning and pretexts.

                A good wrap up may seem simple, but it comes from much data processing and complex thinking and life experience.

                Aloha!

            • #238923

              ozoneman
              Member
              • Total Posts: 151
              @ozoneman

              Very little if any distinction between McCain neocons a Clinton-Obama neoliberals. They are on the same side of every war or coup.

              Frankly, I’d much rather have Trump than Hillary. At least he’s suggested ending these endless wars. But the neoliberal Dems won’t let him. What do you do with a Party like that? Bernie can change it.

               

              • #238938

                The Red Menace
                Member
                • Total Posts: 463
                @twilightsporkle

                He’s had four years and has only expanded those wars.

        • #238865

          PolecatHollerer
          Member
          • Total Posts: 707
          @polecathollerer

          +100

          If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

        • #238992

          Stockholmer
          Member
          • Total Posts: 246
          @stockholmer

          Neocons and neoliberals (there are 2 types of neoliberals)

          are separate things, you make a grave error by using the terms interchangeably

           

          There are two main schools of thought that people refer to neoliberalism in the US and some other countries. There is the RW type as espoused by Reagan and Thatcher, etc, and then there is the ‘leftish’ Third Way style. A lot of the confusion in the US comes from the fact that ‘liberal’ is mostly used there in regards to the left, whilst in most of the rest of the world it is referring to the centre-right (ie. classical liberalism as opposed to social liberalism or ‘new’ liberalism.)

          The Liberal Party (known since 2015 as Liberalerna and before that, for 80 years, as Folkpartiet ie. The People’s Party and then, from 1990 to 2015, as Folkpartiet liberalerna) here in Sweden for example, is a centre-right (centre-right based off a European scale) party. The US has been artificially spun so hard to the right (and the fact it only has two main parties due to a constitutional lack of proportional representation mechanisms for Congress) that a large amount of the Democratic centrists and moderates (and especially the few conservative Dems left) would be on the rightward edge of the centre-right parties in many European nations.

           

          Democrats and neoliberalism and the Third Way

          https://www.vox.com/polyarchy/2019/6/11/18660240/democrats-neoliberalism

           

          A Neo-Liberal’s Manifesto

          By Charles Peters; Charles Peters is the editor of The Washington Monthly.

          September 5, 1982

          https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/opinions/1982/09/05/a-neo-liberals-manifesto/21cf41ca-e60e-404e-9a66-124592c9f70d/?utm_term=.ce3a69efb8e6

           

          A Neoliberal Says It’s Time for Neoliberals to Pack It In

          https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/03/a-neoliberal-says-its-time-for-neoliberals-to-pack-it-in/

           

          Third Way

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way

          • #238994

            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 8,833
            @ohiobarbarian

            @stockholmer Thank you.

            We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

            With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

          • #238996

            Voltairine
            Member
            • Total Posts: 1,414
            @voltairine

            I reject the premise of Eurocentric colonialist culture being entitled to preach “correct” Eurocentric meaning of neoliberalism to it’s victims.

            I’m with Zapatistas on the meaning of neoliberalism: Fourth World War

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcomandante_Marcos#Fourth_World_War

            Edit to add: “Neoliberalism” is not a school of economic thought, hardly anybody self-identifies as a neoliberal. It’s a word of the global resistance to call the enemy we are fighting against. RW-populism recognizes the same enemy and usually calls it simply “globalism”, and draws IMO the wrong conclusion of regress back to nation state model. The correct answer in my view is alternative better globalization – which has always been clear to all genuine leftists.

             

            Aloha!

            • #239017

              Ohio Barbarian
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 8,833
              @ohiobarbarian

              @voltairine

              @stockholmer took a lot of time to explain the difference between neoliberals and neoconservatives. Then you come back with this Eurocentric nonsense, and you’re in Europe, which makes it downright funny.

              Like it or not, you are on an American board. If you want to confuse people, go right ahead with your own anarcho-fringe definitions which will not be understood by most because they make no sense here, and don’t get upset when others point out what they very understandably perceive to be incomprehension on your part.

              We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

              With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

              • #239048

                Voltairine
                Member
                • Total Posts: 1,414
                @voltairine

                Stockholmer is Swedish and obviously you don’t know much about our history with Swedish. :)

                Who says I’m in Europe? The colonialist European languages insist on calling also this place with a Greek name. My native tongue is not an European language, and in my youth when my generation started to Interrail we said we are going to see Europe. For us, Europe was Other and remains so for those who are not fully assimilated into colonized colonizers. My culture is closer to indigenous peoples of Turtle Island than to European culture, and I don’t recognize the legitimacy of American colonialist occupation of Turtle Island. You are a moderator and if you want to kick me out of discussion board to silence constructive criticism of Eurocentric colonialism you can do so, but I would consider that show of weakness from your side. Show of strength requires ability to meet and listen indigenous voices with respect and as peers, and lot of soul searching to deeply question much much longer history of subjugation of European peoples into colonized colonizers. The colonialist baggage you carry in your attitudes, words and actions is not your personal fault, it’s just your conditioning. It’s not the indigenous ways of life that are causing this ecological and social imbalance, but we are now in the same big boat whether we want or not. To get through our common challenge we need better dialogue to share and learn from our experiences, and if you don’t have the strength and courage for that, of course I forgive old and tired and scared boomers too set in their ways to learn anything more.

                Aloha!

                • #239066

                  Ohio Barbarian
                  Moderator
                  • Total Posts: 8,833
                  @ohiobarbarian

                  @voltairine Please don’t fucking psychoanalyze me. In fact, you can bugger off with that particular sack of shit. The same goes for that generational divide-and-conquer garbage you just threw at me.

                  I have neither the intention nor the power to ban you. I’m not so petty as to not be able to agree to disagree on a wide swathe of subjects, especially if the other person has a rational argument, and you usually do.

                  I’ve never colonized anyone, but I’m not going to apologize for the actions of my ancestors, either. I ain’t them, though I still honor their courage, and if you don’t like that, tough shit.

                  I don’t owe you or anyone else anything except to try to avoid the mistakes of the past. I’m tenth generation New World, and as far as I’m concerned, that makes me fundamentally American. You keep going on about Turtle Island, but that whole concept is fucking gone. Done is done, and most of the damage to indigenous peoples here was inflicted by smallpox, mumps, measles, the Spanish, their own failure to overcome their tribal differences by not listening to Pontiac and Tecumseh, and then the English and Americans, French, and Dutch, in that order.

                  You’re like a Welshman pining away for lost Avalon or the Lloegyr. It’s not practical in 2019, and your attempt to moralize me over that stuff will get you nowhere, except maybe to make you feel smugly superior. I do not feel guilty and never will.

                  BTW, Stockholmer is an English expat living in Sweden. I’m well aware of Sweden’s history with Finland, including the parts Finnish troops played during the expansion of the Swedish Empire, though probably not as much as he does.

                  I consider you as someone who really does want to see positive change happen, but you’re an anarchist, so IMHO you’re living in a fantasy world. There will always be hierarchy in any human culture. The only questions are whose on top, who determines who gets there, and what their duties to the people are after they do. We will obviously never agree on that, but that’s OK.

                  That is all. I’m done here.

                  We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

                  With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

                  • #239101

                    Voltairine
                    Member
                    • Total Posts: 1,414
                    @voltairine

                    The representatives of the colonialist culture keep saying that their way is not sustainable. What is not sustainable can’t continue, so it’s not “done deal”.

                    Indigenous peoples and their traditions are still there, taking care of Earth. Denial of their existence and voice is unwise, when we all need each other and hope.





                    Aloha!

                • #239332

                  Stockholmer
                  Member
                  • Total Posts: 246
                  @stockholmer

                  I am a London-born, London-raised (mostly) Brit, who has lived all over the world for decades, but now primarily (I still maintain a West London residence as well) reside in Stockholm on and off for well over a decade. I also lived for years in the US, mostly NYC, Miami, and Los Angeles/San Diego (I adore La Jolla.) I have travelled extensively inside the nation (purposefully visited all 48 contiguous states) as well as obtaining an American university degree (MBA), which, granted, that was 20 plus ago.

      • #238937

        The Red Menace
        Member
        • Total Posts: 463
        @twilightsporkle

        Show up, wave a cardboard sign for two hours, go home and watch the new episode of “Big Bang Theory.”

        Sounds like it’ll be super-effective.

  • #238762

    djean111
    Member
    • Total Posts: 2,806
    @djean111

    We do not have a Democracy to protect.  This is all a dog and pony show.    Campaign fodder. For both parties.   But if worse comes to worse, I sincerely hope Pence hurts those who think this will “protect our Democracy” first.  This is, IMO, all designed to take attention away from what the Democrats are actually doing in Congress, and to try and grease the reeking ass of a Vichy Dem into the White House.  Sure be nice if all those people in 50 states got together to do something about, say, climate change.

    And nobody is above the law?  Bwahahaha!  I was asked to fucking VOTE for someone who, along with her husband, is evidently above the law.  And another one above the law is the DNC favorite right now.  Please.

    I will not vote for a Vichy Dem. Period. As always, I decide who is a Vichy Dem.

    Bernie's ISSUES or Bust!

    • #238764

      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 8,833
      @ohiobarbarian

      @djean111 Indeed, the hypocritical double standards created by and swirling around both the Republicans and Vichy Dems are so thick it is wonder they can see past them. Oh wait, they can’t. I forgot.

      We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

      With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

    • #238788

      Earthartist
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 385
      @earthartist

      So spot on Djean!  And what crap will the corrupt Democrats pass this week for Trump to sign while all the so called protests are going on!  They have already managed the massive military budget that means every other budget will shrink to about enough to pay for an office in dc with a staff person.

      they all ready passed a welfare  gutting bill, so they can not only bomb weddings and hospital over seas, but they can kill more poor americans

      last but not least we can look forward to more spying on us!   All of these were passed while the I hate trump crowd were glued to the farce of impeachment

      all of these were passed with massive support by the Democrats

      Earthartist

      • #238824

        Cold Mountain Trail
        Member
        • Total Posts: 5,578
        @coldmountaintrail

        “all of these were passed with massive support by the Democrats”

        and very little push-back from ‘we the people’

         

  • #238778

    Holland
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 9
    @holland

    Yes.  I am with you.

    Looking at the responses, though, I must write:

    Despair is not an option. Stand up, get involved, organize. That is the only way we defeat Trump.” Bernie Sanders.

    It is another aspect of “the only thing we have to fear is Fear itself.”  Fear only breeds fear in others and ourselves: “nameless, unreasoning, unjustified terror which paralyzes needed efforts to convert retreat into advance.”

    Despair is quite the same.  This is no time to wallow.  This is the time to act, support, create, encourage.  Fear and Despair are paralyzing.

     

    • #238782

      djean111
      Member
      • Total Posts: 2,806
      @djean111

      @holland

      Sorry, I don’t see any “fear and despair” amongst those who are not wildly caught up in thinking an impeachment will actually help our lives.  That’s some strange hyperbole there.   I will feel “fear and despair” if Pence or a Vichy Dem becomes president, though.  That is why I support Bernie.  (But “Bernie says” does not guide my thoughts or actions in the least.)

       

      I will not vote for a Vichy Dem. Period. As always, I decide who is a Vichy Dem.

      Bernie's ISSUES or Bust!

    • #238790

      Earthartist
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 385
      @earthartist

      To me the despair comes from understanding that humans get in their little tribes and can not think about anything broader then their tribe.  They are like lemmings going over the cliff.  The waisted energy of the pussy hats and impeachment hats, could and should have been put to use fighting to stop this corrupt government. Yet here we are right VS left. In a completely meaningless farce, while the world has 1 more year before we lose the chance to save the planet!

      Earthartist

    • #238818

      ravensong
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 1,290
      @ravensong

      @holland

      Sorry, and sad to say, most of what you are mistaking for despair is. in reality, anguish and distress at the beloved Fuhrer getting impeached.

      But there really are a lot of Bernie supporting progressive lefties here too.

      Welcome to JPR!

      Promote Freedom From Religion, and Separation of Church and State.

      See how much you will pay for Healthcare under Bernie Sanders Medicare for All plan:
      https://www.mfacalc.com/
      Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues! ~ Bernie

      • #238909

        FloridaProg
        Member
        • Total Posts: 215
        @floridaprog

        “… anguish and distress at the beloved Fuhrer getting impeached.”

        ROTFLMAO!!!!

        Which describes no one at this site except the goblins you’ve imagined. It’s just that many of us have seen this to be the useless distraction BS that it is.

        Here, let me state this in the language you like to use:

        Trump is a fascist. But that’s not the end of it. Shumer is a fascist. Pelosi is a fascist. Schiff is a fascist. Nunes is a fascist. Biden is a fascist. Obama is a fascist. Clinton is a fascist. If we’re going to talk fascist, then let’s at least call them all out BY NAME and not just some. Sorta makes us look partisan of one party of fascists over the other.

        So a bunch of people who overwhelmingly support the party of fascism (Democratic) will be out in the streets supporting the impeachment of the president who’s a member of the other fascist party (Republican). WOO HOO!! Fascists outing fascists hoping that in time they’ll be able to install their own fascist.

        So exciting.

        • #238911

          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 8,833
          @ohiobarbarian

          @floridaprog I don’t have a problem with calling Clinton and Obama Fascist. They sure do fit Mussolini’s definition of advancing corporate interests via government power.

          We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

          With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

          • #238913

            FloridaProg
            Member
            • Total Posts: 215
            @floridaprog

            I’ll shoot it straight to you, OB. I feel like as progressives we’ve lost 4 years by people not recognizing that the Dem party is dead. Dead!! They are not going to let Bernie anywhere near the nomination. That’s not anything even on their radar, and it most definitely is something they control. I’d love to be wrong, but I know in my heart and mind that I’m not.

            Way too many people have invested years into wanting to retrench the Dem party into the progressive party they want it to be, and it hasn’t happened, and it’s not gonna happen. I know it hurts to put in so much effort just to see it vanish, but it’s time to face reality. It’s time my fellow progressives who haven’t let go already, to finally let go. It seems that seeing Bernie getting screwed again might be the only way for some to see the light, and even then I wonder just how many will not give up chasing this fantasy.

            I wish I had organizational skills to help form a new progressive party, but I don’t. I wouldn’t even know how to start. I just hope to goodness that some conscientious progressives who DO know how will do whatever it is they have to do to get things going and organized. I’m here to help pull my weight and ever how much I can beyond that when the time comes. I just wish this all could have been started 4 years ago. Time is of the essence.

            • #239053

              Ohio Barbarian
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 8,833
              @ohiobarbarian

              @floridaprog A true progressive party is my dream as well, has been for many decades now. But right now, Bernie’s the best we’ve got, he’s here, we’re here, his supporters are here, and either that will be enough or it won’t.

              Fate is inexorable.

              We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.--Franklin Delano Roosevelt

              With Bernie Sanders, we have the receipts. --Nina Turner

        • #238958

          djean111
          Member
          • Total Posts: 2,806
          @djean111

          @floridaprog

          Exactly.  That hyperbole is just funny now.  And yes, all fascists.  Some think that installing a fascist with a different jersey will be better.  No it will not.  And I always remember that being fixated by and loathing the fact that Trump won, by some, means they really wanted Hillary.  Hell with them.   The DNC thought it had maneuvered everybody into “voting for the D, voting for the lesser evil”.  They fucked up.  BIG time.  And they intend to do it again.  If they succeed, I will vote Green and all the hyperbolic Vichy Dem lovers can fuck off.  Blame yourselves, not age groups or states or the electoral college.  Blame the DNC and yourselves.  Grow the fuck up.  And I would not walk across the street for one of those rallies if Bernie was there.   Rallies to install Pence.  WTF.  I suppose some still cling dementedly to thinking Hillary will somehow get her fascist wish to inflict austerity and war, through a bizarre series of events.  And yeah, the US government does not care one whit about rallies.  It ignores them or sends crowd control.  After all, so many just meekly choose this evil or that evil anyway.

          I will not vote for a Vichy Dem. Period. As always, I decide who is a Vichy Dem.

          Bernie's ISSUES or Bust!

    • #238939

      The Red Menace
      Member
      • Total Posts: 463
      @twilightsporkle

      I hate to be the bearer of unpleasant truths, but…

      American “protest culture” is a pointless activity. It’s all about making the participant feel self-righteous, while getting nothing done. It’s anemic, shallow, and revolves around goofy street theater shit. Not once in sixty years has “mainstream” protest achieved a fucking thing, and that is by design. It’s nothing but a thinly political-flavored block party.

      The reality is that nothing is accomplished by protest or demonstration unless you have an answer to one particular question; “OR ELSE WHAT?”

      And by and large, American protest culture’s answer to this question has been “or else we’ll meekly go home and blog about what great people we are for showing up, yay me!’ and… obviously no one cares if you do that, so nothing changes. And when there have been protests with an answer – namely, economic disruption ala OWS, Black Lives Matter, the Water Keepers, and many others… they end up condemned and ostracized from “mainstream” activists.

      Because again… for most American “activists,” it’s about feeling good and feeling important, NOT about achieving anything. Having an answer to “or else what?” unsettles most American activists, since they are stewed in the idea that nonviolence is absolutely always completely mandatory and that anything genuinely disruptive is “violent.”

      Showing up in a beanie, waving an illegible cardboard sign, and then going home is not going to change anything. It’s not going to move anything. All it’s going to say is that you have the free time and economic freedom to show up on a workday and do nothing for several hours before you go home.

      • #239031

        MizzGrizz
        Member
        • Total Posts: 759
        @mizzgrizz

        Perhaps that’s because the protestors don’t have any personal stake in the causes they’re rallying for.Impeachment,for example,is not going to change anybody’s life.

      • #239202

        bazukhov
        Member
        • Total Posts: 1,734
        @bazukhov

        If protest and elections don’t produce your solution (whatever that is) what do you suggest be done?

        Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

  • #238786

    ronRonnie1
    Member
    • Total Posts: 281
    @ronronnie1

    McResistance.

  • #238798

    sadoldgirl
    Member
    • Total Posts: 577
    @sadoldgirl

    What a spectacle. One can be sure that this will motivate

    all the Trump supporters to come out as well. If so, I

    wonder, who will be protected by the police.

  • #238808

    game meat
    Member
    • Total Posts: 924
    @gamemeat

  • #238821

    Cold Mountain Trail
    Member
    • Total Posts: 5,578
    @coldmountaintrail

    How is it (‘they/we’) can turn out50-state rallies for this, but not to stop the wars, end homelessness, raise minimum wage, stop tax cuts for the 1%, etc.??

    If we were able to do the latter, the former might become moot.

    • #238828

      ravensong
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 1,290
      @ravensong

      That’s easy.  The RWers in both parties of the bi-party system stifle constructive social, economic, and political progress, because it cuts the profits of the 1%.

      So we are forced into the streets to make some kind of effort try to stop fascism.  Protests and rallies from Women’s Suffrage to Civil Rights Marches to Vietnam right through to impeaching Trump – all attempts by kind, concerned, aware human beings, the left, people frustrated by conservative RW government of, by, and for, the wealthy, doing at least something to try to stop the fascist madness.  If nothing else, protest creates tension, and greater awareness of the danger of different manifestations of fascism.

      Hopefully, RW Democrats in the House will see the protests, and see the reality that all these people in the streets will donate their last dime to anyone who primaries them if they do not vote to impeach the corrupt fascist in the WH.

      So it’s like, they either vote to impeach, or they’ll have to become Republicans if they want to have a possibility of remaining in Congress after 2o2o.

      Jeff Van Drew of NJ, who has said he won’t vote for impeachment and will become a Republican, won’t have any chance of retaining his seat in 2020, no matter if he runs as a Republican or a Democrat.

      Promote Freedom From Religion, and Separation of Church and State.

      See how much you will pay for Healthcare under Bernie Sanders Medicare for All plan:
      https://www.mfacalc.com/
      Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues! ~ Bernie

    • #238832

      LiberalElite
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 947
      @liberalelite

      (to Cold Mountain Trail) If my (limited) experience involved in leafleting and attending and marshaling in numerous anti-war and anti-Bush demos (often the same demo of course) is any indication, it seems to take an exerted effort over many months to get Americans into the streets to protest anything.  The massive climate march in NYC in 2014 didn’t come about in only a month’s time.  Also in NYC anyway, for anything sizeable you need a permit from the NYPD in advance.

      So here’s the question – maybe you can do better?

      P.S.: Anyone in NYC who may be interested: Meet up at Times Square area, near the George M. Cohan statue at 46th Street at 5:30 p.m.  March route TBD.   It’s a MoveOn (ugh) thing.    I won’t be there.  I’m old and my hips hurt.

       

      I feel much better since I gave up hope.

      "If everyone demanded peace instead of another television set, then there’d be peace." – John Lennon

      • #238843

        Cold Mountain Trail
        Member
        • Total Posts: 5,578
        @coldmountaintrail

        “it seems to take an exerted effort over many months to get Americans into the streets to protest anything. The massive climate march in NYC in 2014 didn’t come about in only a month’s time.”

        I understand.  But evidentally someone put together a 50-state Trump impeachment rally — not sure when the preparation started for that one, but likely sometime this year.  There would have been plenty of time to do the same for all the long-standing issues I mentioned in my earlier post as well.

        “So here’s the question – maybe you can do better?”

        Not sure why the snark, nor why the ridiculous question.  No, obviously I can’t do better, as an older person in a small town without many connections locally, let alone connections to organizations and persons throughout the 50 states.  Without $$ either.  Why do you ask such a question, if not to be snarky? It’s just the kind of thing the a-holes at SV used to reply when anyone criticized their beloved dems.

        That’s the kind of organizing that takes connections, particularly when the issues aren’t popular with most of the already-organized political entities (which they aren’t — rather the opposite).

        That’s why I’m voting for Bernie & supporting him whenever I can.

  • #238829

    GZeusH
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,702
    @gzeush

    OK, so I live in Red State Hell, so the closest “event” is 70 miles away, in a city which just recently took down the Confederate flag (but not without a big ruckus about it).

  • #238840

    3fingerbrown
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 1,777
    @donaldtuohy

    Ah yes, MoveOn, the same organization that went along with Nancy Pelosi about NOT impeaching George W. Bush for war crimes and torture, now is all fired up to impeach Trump over a phone call.

    All governments lie to their citizen's, but only Americans believe theirs.

  • #238844

    sadoldgirl
    Member
    • Total Posts: 577
    @sadoldgirl

    @donaldtuohy:

    Right you are. One of their people called me up last

    night to find out whether I was for or against this

    idiotic impeachment. After hearing “against” the

    person hung up. This sounds to me initiated by

    the Dems; thus another effort at failure.

  • #238914

    Cold Mountain Trail
    Member
    • Total Posts: 5,578
    @coldmountaintrail

    “Once again you are trying to make nonfactual distinction between neocons and neoliberals”

    I guess you say that because you live in Finland and don’t know English so well.

    In fact, both words have long-established definitions, and they’re not *your* definition.

    So why don’t you quit trolling.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

    • #238960

      Voltairine
      Member
      • Total Posts: 1,414
      @voltairine

      Jingoist ad hominem don’t help to understand meaning of these terms and use them accordingly. I’ve read the wiki articles and much else while ago.

      Neocons wiki: “political movement born in the United States during the 1960s among liberal hawks who became disenchanted with the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party, and the growing New Left and counterculture,”

      During Dubya Neocon imperialist policy peaked in R-wing, during Obama continuation of Bush foreign policy the liberal hawks took back full control of D-wing, and when Trump challenged Neocon control and legacy in R-wing they went RussiaRussia OrangeManBad.

      Contemporary meaning of Neoliberalism comes from Spanish, wiki: “During the military rule under Augusto Pinochet (1973–1990) in Chile, opposition scholars took up the expression to describe the economic reforms implemented there and its proponents (the “Chicago Boys“).<sup id=”cite_ref-Boas2009_8-4″ class=”reference”>[8]</sup> Once this new meaning was established among Spanish-speaking scholars, it diffused into the English-language study of political economy.<sup id=”cite_ref-Boas2009_8-5″ class=”reference”>[8]</sup> According to one study of 148 scholarly articles, neoliberalism is almost never defined but used in several senses to describe ideology, economic theory, development theory, or economic reform policy.”

      Together with other opponents I define Neoliberalism as the globalist agenda of corporate fascist market fundamentalism. It’s differs from more nation state oriented fascist and social democratic corporatism in strong opposition to labor unions having a share of the corporate cake, and as it regulates heavily for the benefit of multinational corporations, it has nothing to do with genuine free markets either. US and especially Neocon imperialism is the military backbone of Neoliberal globalization.

      Aloha!

  • #238977

    David the Gnome
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,525
    @davidthegnome

    Uhhh… wouldn’t it make more sense to rally… I don’t know… against the drug companies and the cost of insulin?  How about the continuing wars?  How about the recent pentagon budget that was eagerly, almost gleefully passed by both parties?  The NDAA – and those things that come with it, you know, like the right of the powers that be to indefinitely hold American prisoners with neither charge nor trial.  Drone assassinations?  Erm, climate change?  Corporate subsidies and incentives?  The cuts to food stamps that are literally going to starve people?  Lack of housing?  Food?  Clean water?  Education?

    No… they are rallying to support an impeachment… that everyone knows is going to fail in the Senate.  Its not because Trump continued the forever wars, or has launched an all out assault on Americas poor, or has continued the tradition of previous administrations of imprisoning children and families, many of which committed no crime and sought only refuge.  Not the war crimes, not the coup attempt in Venezuela, nor the more recent, successful coup in Bolivia.  Not the NDAA…

    Impeachment for the big bad Trump though?  Yes, absolutely, rallies in all 50 states.  Do they even know what they are supporting and what they are condemning?  Shall we all thank and praise the likes of Pelosi, Schiff, Schumer?  For promoting this farce of an impeachment effort?  What will the result be?  Trump impeached?  Haha no.  A weakening of support among his base?  Nope, if anything, the opposite.  Anyone actually being held accountable for anything?  I don’t know – why don’t we ask Congress about insider trading?  Or, hell, why don’t we ask them about why the top fortune 500 companies not only pay no federal corporate tax – but are receiving considerable tax relief?  Why don’t we ask Pelosi and her ilk why they have signed on to every poorly planned corporate giveaway and attack on the American people for many years?

    Ah… people.  This is no shining moment in American history, this is not about patriotism, justice, duty or honor.  It is another act in the ongoing play of “You can do whatever you like to the people, as long as you can convince them that someone else is the enemy”.  Well, many have fallen for it…. all over again.  We will fight among ourselves about it – as we are doing here.  The truth though?

    The truth is that they are almost all criminals, almost all of them should be facing trial for crimes against humanity, war crimes, financial crimes, money laundering, accepting bribes – and so on and so forth.  The fact that they have re-written the laws and have no regard for the constitution – does not mean that they have done so legally.

    To hell with them all.  I am for the people.  I am not for or against Trump, he is just another politician.  So long as Bernie is for the people, I am for him.  Beyond that?  They are playing an ugly, cynical game, putting on a show for the masses.  None of this is serious.  It never was.

    • #238989

      incognito
      Donor
      • Total Posts: 2,331
      @incognito

      @davidthegnome

      Well said, David!

      👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍!!!

  • #238986

    incognito
    Donor
    • Total Posts: 2,331
    @incognito

    Oh great.

    To “protect our Democracy?”

    What Democracy? We don’t have  “Democracy”   in this country anymore and it’s pretty bizarre people still think we do.

    Meanwhile…

    What legislation are they going to pass while this useless charade is going on? How many more billions are they going to hand Donald”s MIC?  What are they going to pass this time? Cut Medicare and Social Security? Another $700 million tax break for the greedy Oligarchs?

    Whatever it is, it’s going to be a biggie. Hang on to your hats because the next ratfucking is coming.

    This shit is a waste of time. If you think for one minute Turtle Boy gives one whit what pro impeachment protesters think/want, I’ve got a bridge to sell you. Trump is not going to be removed from office. That’s just a fact. The REPUBS control the Senate. The Senate votes to convict. The Corrupt Repub party, and most likely, a bunch of  blue dog “Dems” will vote with them to not convict. There’s no way in hell Trump is going to be impeached. These protests are stupid and another dog and pony show for the corrupt parties to distract the peasants for some sinister reason. Most likely a horrendous piece of legislation they’re voting through – TOGETHER – BOTH parties.

    Watch and learn.

    • #239008

      Stockholmer
      Member
      • Total Posts: 246
      @stockholmer

      I see little true Democracy in the US atm. The system has been gamed. The swing districts have been gerrymandered so far that the pink and purple and reddish and outright red make it is almost impossible to elect an actual progressive there. Voter suppression as well, plus the Dummicrats are held captive to a tonne of damn near conservative older people of colour, especially southern blacks. The boomers and older gens have fucked the nation for decades, and will continue to do so until they die off. Gen Xers are a bit better, and the Millennials are by far better still. Gen Z is too young as a total group (the youngest are only 7 to 9 years old or so, depending on where you set the cut-off date) to make a true call. I am fairly sure they will be just as progressive (and probably more) than the Millennial gen.

      None of that still solves the massive underlying constitutional time bombs that will end up, if shit goes truly pear shaped, ripping the union apart by 2040 or so. By 2030-35 or so, 70% of the Senate will be held by 30% of the population. That 30% is far older, whiter, less educated, more fundie religious, more RW, more reactionary, more racist than the other 70%, who have to settle for only 30 seats. The Electoral College is also a Rethug protection scam. If Trump is reelected (and the Senate stays in Rethug hands), the SCOTUS will end up 7-2 or even 8-1 hard RW. They will roll back (via a literally flood of test cases from RW red states) basically most all post-Brown v Board civil rights, and also will not just devolve things to the states, but will attempt to make RW claptrap the law of the land.

      The giant blue states will never accept living inside a white nationalist theocracy with a federal government that will (when the Repugs are in power) send in the feds to bend the blues to the red’s will. The union will not hold together if that dystopian nightmare actually occurs.

      • #239015

        ravensong
        Donor
        • Total Posts: 1,290
        @ravensong

        @stockholmer

        Wow!  That is one seriously thoughtful, insightful, and poignant analysis.

        Bravo!

        On Edit:  Thank you. I am bookmarking this thread because of your post.  So glad someone else sees this, too.

        Promote Freedom From Religion, and Separation of Church and State.

        See how much you will pay for Healthcare under Bernie Sanders Medicare for All plan:
        https://www.mfacalc.com/
        Together, together, my friends, we have begun a political revolution to transform America, and that revolution, our revolution, continues! ~ Bernie

      • #239025

        incognito
        Donor
        • Total Posts: 2,331
        @incognito

        @stockholmer

        Yep, Democracy is dead (has been for decades) and this country is headed to its second civil war. The writing’s on the wall.

        IF BERNIE IS FUCKED OVER AGAIN.

        And it sure is looking like that’s their plan.

        If he’s not the President, it’s game over for the “United” States of America.

        • #239176

          Earthartist
          Donor
          • Total Posts: 385
          @earthartist

          I agree with you but it will not just be the end of America it will be the end of earth. I think Bernie could shift things world wide on the climate.

          I am thinking that he will be stopped one way or another.

          then we will have civil war.

          Earthartist

  • #239084

    sadoldgirl
    Member
    • Total Posts: 577
    @sadoldgirl

    @stockholmer

    A nice, but somewhat misleading description or

    one lacking the most important factors, imo. A

    capitalist system is eo ipso non-democratic. It is

    ruled by the oligarchs, who acquire the necessary

    power. Many of the social issues are driven by them

    to the rule “divide and conquer”. Otherwise the whole

    alphabet institutions serve the oligarchs, and by no

    means just the ones from the USA. This is the NWO,

    which even the elites accept as long as they do

    reasonably well. The rest will have to be controlled

    as well as set up to fight each other. The only two

    events to change that are a nuclear war or a faster

    and faster deteriorating eco-system.

     

  • #239089

    bazukhov
    Member
    • Total Posts: 1,734
    @bazukhov

    “ Americans dreaded democracy and contrived their constitution against it.”  Lord Acton

    See Senate and Electoral College for examples.

    Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

  • #239220

    mrdmk
    Member
    • Total Posts: 941
    @mrdmk

    Gonna hash some hairs on this one:

    The Representative Democracy of the United States of America is actually called a Federal Presidential Republic. So I get a mused look on my face when somebody says, “Save Our Democracy!” This is because it is hyperbole from someone who does not know what they are talking about. I would have more respect if they say, “Save Our Republic!”

    LINK — Wikipedia, Representative_Democracy

    I gave up on Move On when they refused to hold the G. W. Bush Administration responsible for lying the country into a war, torture, spying on US citizens, etc. IMO Move On became even worse when they would not hold protest concerning Obama’s economic, foreign policy matters and war policies even thought Obama himself said, ‘you need to hold my feet to the fire to get things done!’ It came down to calculating bullshit by a political operative.

    As far as Trump goes, yeah he left himself open to be impeached with that phone call. What a stupid-ass bully of the ninth degree. He also did a list of other things that are equally as bad if not worse that are worthy of Impeachment. Trump needs to be impeached for those transgressions as well. But to the Democratic Party, Vice President Biden is more import than the American Public’s well being so they can suck the stink off of my shorts.

    If you cannot dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit WC Fields

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