To vote for Biden, or not to vote for Biden

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    • #326972
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,676

      So, I’ve given this a lot of thought – and I have, at one time or another, pondered the question of whether Biden might not do as much damage as Trump.  He is, perhaps, less obviously psychotic, not as brutally authoritarian and in your face.  He might restore some of the environmental protections Trump has obliterated.  It is possible that Biden would be less terrible than Trump.  There is, of course, the strong possibility of an upcoming supreme court seat as well – which is something that concerns a lot of people.  I’d like to remind everyone though – that Obama did attempt to get through a supreme court judge, Merrick Garland.  What happened there is that the republicans blocked him from getting anywhere close to the seat.  They claimed that they wanted to let the American people decide – but we all know that’s bull shit.  So now, in spite of having had a democrat for President, we have another conservative supreme court justice.  This was under Obama, who Biden served as VP.

      What else is there to consider?  Well, we might consider foreign policy.  To begin with, Joe Biden DID support the Iraq war. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/17/joe-biden-role-iraq-war

      The conflict in Syria: https://www.politico.com/story/2016/01/joe-biden-syria-talks-military-solution-218139

      On Venezuela: https://www.democracynow.org/2020/5/12/headlines/joe_biden_supports_unelected_juan_guaido_in_venezuela_says_us_should_keep_sanctions_against_cuba

      I could go on – but let it suffice to say that Biden is indeed a hawk.  Now, as for how he might interact with Russia or China, I do not know – but I expect that he would be at least as belligerent as Obama.

      How about healthcare?  Well… : https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/10/biden-says-he-wouldd-veto-medicare-for-all-as-coronavirus-focuses-attention-on-health.html

      On Universal basic income, Biden basically referred to those who support it as “class clueless”: https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-universal-basic-income-bernie-sanders-elon-musk-864801

      Now we could talk about climate change, I suppose, but why would Biden hurt the people (oil company execs, etc.) who have helped fund so many of his campaigns?  Why would he support anything genuinely green, at all?  It would be breaking with his character, for sure.

      In spite of all of this, I have indeed given a second, and even third thought to voting for him.  The more I think about it though, the more I realize that he would be an ineffective President at best – and a terrible one at worst.  He has said very much in public that he has no empathy for those of my generation (millenials) that he doesn’t think “young people” these days have it rough.  He really should look at the economic data before saying really dumb shit, but saying dumb shit is par for the course with Biden.  He does not even have Obama’s ability as a powerful speaker.  He does not have a great deal of grass roots, progressive support – in fact, among those most likely to oppose him are progressives, particularly those among the working class.

      Will they vote for Trump instead?  I doubt it.  More likely, they’ll vote for a third party or do a write in.  This will effectively cost democrats votes that they might have gotten had they nominated someone else – say, Bernie Sanders, or even Andrew Yang.  Do they have enough moderates and centrists to defeat Trump in spite of that?  Enough progressives who will hold their nose because at least Biden isn’t Trump?  Maybe.  Maybe not.

      If I vote for Biden, then I become partially responsible (in a tiny way, but nonetheless) for him being President.  I cannot, in good conscience, vote for him.  It would be breaking with my principles in a rather extreme way, in the hopes that he would be less terrible than Trump.

      It is very, very difficult for me to understand just precisely… how in the hell… democrats once again nominated the worst possible candidate out of so many.  Whether the price to be paid is four more years of Trump – or a Biden Presidency, I fear the price that the rest of us, the poorest of us – and the working class pay – will be immense.  So given that I cannot vote for either of them, I may vote green party or independent or some such thing, or even write in a name – knowing full well that such a vote will not lead to a victory.  At least then, though, I can say that I am not responsible in any way for either of the two.

      I want nothing to do with them.  Perhaps the democrats will pull something at the convention and offer a better nominee… failing that, I’ve got no reason to feel even slightly encouraged about the 2020 election.

    • #326974
      PolecatHollerer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,174

      I cannot in good conscience vote for either Trump or Biden. So, I’ll be voting for whoever the Greens are putting up.

      In the (IMHO unlikely) event that the Dems swap Biden out at the last second, I’m certain the replacement would be no better, and quite possibly worse. It’s difficult for me to maintain hope that anything is going to improve in the next five years. My long-term plans are more about basic survival than growth or success. Not much fun. 🙁

      If you give a man enough rope, it will be six inches too short. This is not the nature of rope- it is the nature of man.

    • #326975
      N2Doc
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,054

      It is more important, to them, to complete the process of moving as far to the right as possible, because their donor base (who pay them and who are the only voices they listen to) desires this. Let the Repubs go nuttier and nuttier, while the Democrats represent the ‘sensible’ alternative that accomplishes the same overall goals.   By not winning, the Democrats don’t need to accomplish a thing, they can continue spouting slogans and quietly working with the Republicans.

      • #327123
        Thom Paine
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 280

        I agree completely.  Why did the Dem leadership pick the worst possible candidate?  Easy, they want to lose.  Their owners like Trump because he gave them more tax breaks than Hills could have and also they love having a boogy-man they can encourage people to join them to RESIST.  While Pelosi acts like a 3rd grader being rude to Trump, the moderates that worship her don’t care that she bails out lobbyists with nothing (a little cake maybe) for the People.

        Maybe a reason to vote for Biden.  The DNC doesn’t want him as president and would be in a bad position if he were to win.  They’d have to wear him like an albatross.

         

    • #326977
      ThouArtThat
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,642

      @davidthegnome

      Hi david,

      Yep – all true without even scratching the surface of his past neo-liberal roots.  About the only other trick the dems may have up their sleeve is a switcheroo to HRC.  In any case, this citizen cannot vote for either puppet of the two-party duopoly.  Our choices reflect the reality that American politics is nothing but theater.  The real decisions are made by the 1% that actually own and control the political sham called American government.

      TAT

      Rights aren't rights if someone can take them away. They're privileges.
      That's all we've ever had in this country, is a bill of temporary privileges.

      - George Carlin

      Sooner or later we all sit down to a banquet of consequences.

      - Robert Louis Stevenson

      Politics is the entertainment division of the Military Industrial Complex.

      - Frank Zappa

    • #326978
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 16,388

      They were paid to do this, and they did. Paid by campaign donations, groovy parties, corporate board seats, and consultant fees. In short, they were bribed to nominate Biden and, because they are corrupt, they did.

      Beating Trump was never the #1 priority of the Democrat Party and still isn’t. Keeping people out of government who want to curb corporate power is the #1 priority.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #326979
      PADemD
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,052

      We have Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court because of Biden.

    • #326980
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,676

      @polecathollerer

      @n2doc

      It is becoming increasingly evident that we need dramatic change – like yesterday.  I do not see how that is going to happen under a Biden Presidency.  We will be looking at the worsening of carbon emissions, the continued build up of military budget, continued tensions (and possibly more) with Russia and China.  We will not see genuine healthcare reform or a UBI.  We will not see any kind of plan capable of actually doing something, anything, about climate change.  So what is the result?  Four, perhaps eight more years of everything going downhill?  It has been proven, historically, that austerity does not work – yet there is a whole gaggle of idiots demanding it right now, y’know, because the budget – and because apparently they spent too much in giving money to people with those 1200 checks.  Never mind the hundreds of billions and trillions that went to Wall Street and the corporations… or the 2 trillion dollar tax cut… or the effective tax rate on both corporations and dividends…

      Tax revenue will continue to decrease – while expenses continue to rise – and without genuine help for the American people, the economic situation will also grow worse.

      We are looking at not just bad things – but truly terrifying things coming down the road.  Is Biden capable of leading the Country during a crisis?  Does he have the right ideas about much of anything at all?  Obama was disappointing enough in the end – but Biden, I would say, is further right than Obama, who somehow managed to keep the patriot act in full strength, begin a program of drone assassination by algorithm and so on and so forth.

      It goes beyond depression.  If this system does not fall soon, then the majority of us probably will.  Those who think that they’re old enough that they won’t see the worst climate change has to bring… could very easily be very, very wrong.  Those who think war with China or Russia could never happen could also be very wrong.  All it takes is one idiot, one mistake.  Is Biden a good diplomat?  Is he likely to improve our relations with either one?

      Democrats have often said in the past “This isn’t the time to vote third party!  This election is life or death!  It is the most important thing on earth!”  Enough of us fell for it that we voted for them… to little result.

      All of this is why I cannot comprehend why many people – even a few here at JPR – seem to be saying that voting for Biden is the only reasonable choice.  What is reasonable about it?  What is moral about it?  What is good about it?  I challenge anyone who supports him to point these things out, beyond the petty crap that I mention in the OP.  Seriously, prove me wrong.

    • #326982
      salemcourt
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,856

      @davidthegnome  I also will not vote for either one of them, even though on foreign policy, I do think Biden is worse than Trump.

    • #326983
      wilsonbooks
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 128

      I think that is what we will have if he is reelected.

      “I will tell you what I will do and what I will not do. I will not serve that in which I no longer believe, whether it calls itself my home, my fatherland, or my church: and I will try to express myself in some mode of life or art as freely as I can and as wholly as I can, using for my defense
      the only arms I allow myself to use -- silence, exile, and cunning.”
      ― James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man

      • #326986
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 16,388

        @wilsonbrooks Democrats have been screaming that for years and it hasn’t happened. Wolf! They cry. For that matter, how do you know we won’t have someone worse than Trump, a real Nazi populist, after 4 or 8 more years of lying, corrupt, corporatist Democratic rule? Clinton gave us Bush. Obama gave us Trump. What will Biden give us? The pattern isn’t very pretty.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

        • #327032
          Earthartist
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 898

          Not to mention the republicans used the same talking points with obama.   These protest should clearly show that Trump does not have the ability to do this anyway.  He is not liked by the military you need that to become a dictator.

          Earthartist

      • #327267
        Mr. Mickeys Mom
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 4,147

        I won’t be fooled again.

        Hell, no... I'm not giving up...

    • #326984
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,676

      @thouartthat

      It is obvious now that it is a sham.  I wonder how so many people are still eager to vote for it?  Oh, perhaps not the poor, or much of the working class, or people like us, but still, tens of millions.  Is the populace really that ignorant?  Is that the real reason the dems have Biden for a nominee – and the republicans have Trump for a President?  Are we just… stupid?  Honestly, I was convinced by Obama in 2008.  I voted for him again in 2012, in spite of having many issues with him, because the other guy was worse.  That is no reason to choose a leader though…


      @ohiobarbarian

      If you ask most democrats, most of those “blue no matter who” types, they will tell you that Biden is obviously better than Trump.  Like it is laughable to even suggest that he might not be.  Is it really though?  If we look at his record – his policies, what do we see that really indicates he would be better?  Given his thoughts on foreign policy, it is actually quite within the realm of possibility that he would start a war with Russia – or even instigate more shit with Syria or Venezuela.  We really don’t need to be doing that shit right now.

      Leadership… hmm… dude is hiding out in his god damn bunker, has been for months.  Now I get that people are trying to self isolate and such, but let’s face it, most of us regular people either can’t or wont do that to that extent.  Hell, even that prick Trump was out and about until the protestors scared the shit out of him.  How can he challenge anything, even Trump, when he is afraid to even come out in public with a mask on?

      If it is about the money… well, Biden will probably be good for the rich, possibly for the upper middle class – but not for anyone else.  I can understand, a little bit, if the motivation is primarily financial, why they might vote for Biden.  Beyond that… I don’t see much.


      @pademd

      Really makes me think “really?” about all those people telling me he’d give us a liberal supreme court judge.  Hmm.  Garland was hardly liberal – I doubt who ever Biden picked would be either.  Clarence Thomas… oh happy day, all we need is another conservative prick, then they can really start turning America into a god damned religious fundamentalist theocracy.

      • #327034
        ThouArtThat
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,642

        @davidthegnome

        Hi david,

        “It is obvious now that it is a sham. I wonder how so many people are still eager to vote for it? Oh, perhaps not the poor, or much of the working class, or people like us, but still, tens of millions. Is the populace really that ignorant? Is that the real reason the dems have Biden for a nominee – and the republicans have Trump for a President? Are we just… stupid? Honestly, I was convinced by Obama in 2008. I voted for him again in 2012, in spite of having many issues with him, because the other guy was worse. That is no reason to choose a leader though…”

        The short answer to your question is yes; Americans are truly ignorant across a wide range of issues.  The so-called “dumbing down” of Americans and American culture has been in play for decades.  It helps the 1% maintain the charade.  To help understand the reality, three authors capture the erosion in curiosity and culture very well.

        Morris Berman
        – The Twilight of American Culture – 2000
        – Dark Ages America: The Final Phase of Empire – 2006
        – Why America Failed: The Roots of Imperial Decline – 2011

        Chris Hedges
        – War is a Force that Gives us Meaning – 2002
        – American Fascists: the Christian Right and the War on America – 2007
        – Death of the Liberal Class – 2010
        – Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt – 2012
        – America the Farewell Tour – 2018

        Neil Postman
        – Amusing Ourselves to Death – 1985

        TAT

        Rights aren't rights if someone can take them away. They're privileges.
        That's all we've ever had in this country, is a bill of temporary privileges.

        - George Carlin

        Sooner or later we all sit down to a banquet of consequences.

        - Robert Louis Stevenson

        Politics is the entertainment division of the Military Industrial Complex.

        - Frank Zappa

    • #326998
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,676

      @salemcourt

      Good point.  You may be right – but Trump still has time to piss off China more.  Who knows?

       


      @wilsonbooks

      I think it is oligarchy however we look at it.  The wealthy elite still pull Trump and Biden’s strings.  If Trump does attempt to become some sort of Dictator, I don’t think the military would allow it anyway.

      Even if you are right – is dictatorship worse than oligarchy?

      • #327002
        MizzGrizz
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,326

        ..a bargain basement Mussolini,but the system has other ideas.He’s not had it all his way,on travel bans and many other things.

        The only success he’s really had has been his rich man’s tax bills,which the system had no problem with whatsoever.

        As bad as he’s been,most of his demagoguery has been theatrical posturing and photo ops only—exactly what you can expect from a reality show host.It’s a television presidency,with just about as much substance.

         

    • #327015
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,676

      I say none of this with any pleasure.  It is depressing as hell.  I wish the democrats had chosen a better candidate, i wish they had done anything at all to give people like me a reason to remain in the party.  I realize it is basically either them or the Republicans – and shit, I’d love to have a reason to vote for someone who could win.  Right now I don’t.

      Give me an FDR, JFK, a Carter, even a Johnson – and I would go vote for them.  Biden though?  Seriously… Why?  It does not benefit the poor, the working class, me personally, our Country.  I do not see how it benefits the world.

      The media might be cheering Biden on – but what the hell is there to cheer for?

      • #327033
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 16,388

        @davidthegnome Remember that those TV talking heads are all millionaires. They are our class enemies every bit as much as Trump or Biden are, and more effective because they propagandize more people. You know all about that.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #327070
      B Calm
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 921

      anything in 2016.  So I guess I will do my part and send them another message and not vote for Biden!

      • #327124
        Thom Paine
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 280

        When you say the DNC didn’t learn you are making the assumption that they are making a mistake.  Looks to me like they know exactly what they are doing.  Why defeat Trump, doGs gift to the 1%.   Maybe you should vote for Biden just to piss off the DNC.  Make them live with the responsibility of nominating gropy ole Joe.

        • #327129
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 16,388
          1. Gropin’ Joe don’t Tweet.
          2. It’ll saddle the Democratic Party with the stigma of failing to do anything to help people in the Second Great Depression


          @thompaine
          That’s a pretty good one you brought up. It’s not enough to convince me to vote for Biden, but it may be enough for some folks, and I won’t blame them if they do.

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #327073
      Pam2
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,078

      This is precisely the problem- the DNC chose Biden, not the voters! If the election had been fair and free of fraud, Bernie would have won. I’m not going to vote for a fraudulent candidate. (Plus the dementia, horrible record yada, yada, yada)

       

       

       

       

    • #327087
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 898

      I wonder if we could have a general strike on voting until they make all elections government funded

       

      Earthartist

    • #327103
      Jan Boehmerman
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 3,409

      But I also WON’T SIT IT OUT!  With lots of write-ins and third party entries…. the two corporate parties SHOULD get the message!

    • #327160
      retired liberal
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,997

      Then they ran a dozen or so mostly better, in some way candidates. They all dropped out or were forced out through devious methods.
      Biden, with this known downward sliding mental facilities,  is still there. What we need to be worrying about is who is his vice president going to be? We don’t have a choice there either.

      BTY, I an voting either 3rd party, write-in.

      We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
      If you are wrong, it will be because you are not cynical enough.
      Both major political parties are special interest groups enabling each other for power and money, at the expense of the people they no longer properly serve…
      Always wear a proper mask when out and about. The life you save could be both yours and mine.

    • #327166
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,497

      it’s a concept created by Silicon Valley executives who are missing the point, he said

      — I think he’s correct on the silly valley connection to ubi

       

      “So the point is we don’t pay enough attention to what really is at the core of class cluelessness. We mean well, but we’re divided into a professional class now, and everybody else.”

      — I think he’s correct on this division too

       

      But what that implies for him as president, no idea.

      Not sure who the ‘better candidates’ are, except for bernie.  I don’t remember anyone in the debates I’d have wanted as president.  Maybe marianne williamson would have been less toxic, but could she deal with the powers?  I doubt it.  That was one of bernie’s strong points, he knew how things worked there.

    • #327198
      ozoneman
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 312

      I won’t vote for evil. Green or Bernie write in for me.

    • #327202
      EvilLurker
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 15

      We have 2 candidates that are both awful. We get to choose between shitty and shittier. I’ll probably vote Green again but it’s mind-boggling that Jill Stein only got 1% of the popular vote last time.

    • #327211
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,287

      Any plan that succeeds has to deal with the necessary massive voter contact information.  Starting at the local level works.  Kshama Sawant has won three city council elections so far.  She was the councilmember who used her key to let demonstrators into City Hall, and I am happy to have helped enable that.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #327262
      ravensong
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,222

      and spike in blood pressure.

      Just thinking about voting for Biden makes me feel stressed out, and slightly ill.

      Why can’t we just have a nice, peaceful, relaxing general strike, boycott, and reasonable extended period of massive non-violent civil unrest, and “convince” all the plutocrats and plutocrat owned ratfuckers to go away?

      Wouldn’t that be a whole lot more fun. and constructive, than quick death by Trump, or slow death by Biden?

      “Give me liberty, or give me death” takes on another whole new meaning on a dying planet in the 21st century.

      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #327525
      Betty Karlson
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 467

      @Deadpool may I nominate this for the Daily Radical?

      It touches on many important issues that a lot of voters are struggling with, and it does so in  a thoughtful way, without any vote-shaming.

       

       

      • #327532
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 16,388

        @deadpool Second for putting this on the Daily Radical, for most of the replies as well as the OP.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #327529
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,676

      I expected a lot more arguing on this thread.  I know most of us dont like Biden much, but there are those who will vote for him in the Hope’s that he is/will be better than Trump.  I wont argue with that, because it could go either way.

      The difference though, as @jimlane has pointed out several times – the difference between JPR and the general public is more than considerable.  This place reminds me that, while I may be in a minority as regards ideology – I am not alone.

      Generally if I try to have this kind of conversation with Biden voters anywhere else, they either change the subject or get really offended and pissed off.  They dont realise that I’m not attacking them – I am criticizing Biden as a potential President, pointing out his flaws – and arguing that he really does not represent most of them anymore than he does me.

      It isnt easy to have these kinds of talks in the real world, so people tend to avoid them.  I really wish that wasnt so – honest debate that takes humility and compassion into account is a grand thing – and is one of the pillars of any genuine democracy.

      Sadly, like with much else, it has become all about sound bites.  One team VS another… but we all can hopefully come to recognize that we are on the same human team.  It cant be just about America either – our actions on foreign policy absolutely concern all other Nations.

      I suspect the anti-Russian and anti-Chinese sentiment to reach rather more extreme levels, too.  The thing is, it isnt about Nationalism for the likes of Biden and Trump – it’s about money.

      • #328404
        ProgRockinProg
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 48

        I feel sometimes I am caught between THAT board, who kicked me off for defending Bernie a bit too hard, and/or criticizing the D establishment, and THIS board, which so far I’m allowed to stay on, even though it seems I am not as radical as most.

        I always thought that even while there are major differences in the parties on social justice issues, they are very much pulling in the same direction with economic issues.  For some, I’m sure, the social issues alone is worth voting for Democrats. But for most of us, we need more than that. And know that social and civil rights deterioration is an indirect result of systematic economic injustice. And simply putting band aids on, say, like increasing police training a bit, having a few white officers kneel, is not enough to really do much. While Democrats still bow to large multinationals corporations, as well as the health of their own lucrative personal portfolios.

        That said, this time round, there IS enough of a difference to vote Democratic. If it was Biden/Clintons/Gore/Kerry   vs.  McCain, Dole, Romney, Jeb….any combination there, I would say what’s the difference? And I’d not frown on any one that did not vote period.  But come on,  I think some here are fooling themselves if they think Trump is no more dangerous than any of those. His narcissism combined with his ignorance, and racism, and personal greed, is off the charts. And he may not know how to set up a Fascist state, but some around him like Miller, Bannon, Pompeo, Barr, will be glad to give him the road map, all he has to do is follow it. And his second term he will shed more traditional Rs and appoint more Nazi’s we haven’t even heard of yet.

        Look how much he has gotten away with in just 4 years.  The point should be well made by now what he stands for. Hey, no one wants another Turd Way Democratic administration. But for whatever reason, cheating by the DNC again, Sanders lost, and Biden won. I am bitterly disappointed.  I think it was a once in a lifetime opportunity for America to truly change the landscape, even if not as much would have gotten accomplished as we would have wanted.  Just watching the MSM in a self reflective shock when Sanders jumped to the early lead, navel gazing how maybe they were wrong and maybe Sanders ideas weren’t so crazy after all, and maybe they should listen to him more objectively, as, you know, journalists are supposed to ffs, was an eye opener of what a Sanders admin may usher in.  Of course they snapped back to the status quo when Biden started surging.

        And seriously, how many thought that there was much of a chance that a progressive would win the nomination, or be allowed to anyways? I know its not much, but with Biden in there, AOC, the squad, Sanders and Warren, all of them and more of the progressive wing will at least have SOME voice in government. Small though it may be.  There is more support today than 4 years ago for M4A.  and a min wage increase. Joe will be pressured to move that direction at least. While a new Trump admin will dismantle  the last dregs of protections in the ACA, and put roadblock legislation in place in case any future D decides to try  M4A ever again.  Including many many many more asswipe con judges.  Yes a Turd Way President would nominate corporate first judges, but not Trump-first level of corruption.

        I don’t know if some here just don’t take the threat of fascism seriously or what.  It can happen. In fact the slow warming of the pot has already normalized many things.  Firing of the IG the latest. Getting rid of oversight. Trump’s own personal attorney AG. I can see further attacks on the free press. An all out assault on Net Neutrality.  Sites like this may be shut down for good. Or be very very difficult to log onto.

        Are you willing to risk that because Sleepy Joe is too status quo?  Too nothingburger?  I think Demcrats wasted a lot of America’s time by nominating Biden, and its a crippling blow considering the highs we had in the first weeks of the primary voting, and the promise that brought. But suck it up sunshine. There are brighter days ahead. So yes we have to vote Biden to make sure Trump and Fascism do not win, and then slog through at least 4 years of holding the forte, while we figure out something else.  I really don’t see any other choice.  Sarandon and others have made their point. He’s really really bad, and we don’t want that.  It should be obvious now how dangerous it is to allow this orange pig to govern one more day.  This is a unique danger, we have to accept the loss and live to win another day.

        • #328482
          djean111
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 4,491

          terrible legislation – AND IS PROUD OF THAT.  He has promised to veto M4A if it should miraculously slip past Pelosi and Schumer and get to his desk.  He has Jamie Dimon and Larry Summers on his shortlist for cabinet posts.  He is talking to Rahm Fucking Emanuel.  And he will have the gleeful cooperation of the GOP and the Vichy Dem Congress in inflicting more of that war and austerity and gifts to the .1% and Wall Street.  I do not think Biden would appoint any liberal judges to the Supreme Court, either.

          Biden is OWNED now, and Biden is happy and willing to please his owners.

          Biden, Pelosi, Schumer, Larry Summer, Jamie Dimon, Rahm Emanuel.  NONE of these people mean well for the rest of us.

          Not buying what you are selling.  I am not even buying what Bernie is selling.  And dismissing progressive concerns as “gee, you made your point, so now do what you are told” seems condescending.  At best.

          Fascism is the control of government by corporations.  War and austerity for us.  Biden is the fucking poster boy for that.

          So – nope.  And this just in from Sunshine – suck it up your own self.  You are free to vote for Biden.  You are not free to tell others how they have to vote.  This is not DU.

          • #328559
            ProgRockinProg
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 48

            djdean111:  Sorry I sounded like I was telling folks in here how they have to vote.  It was meant more of a general “have to” take out Trump directed at the whole country.  But please don’t put words into my mouth with fake quotations. “gee, you made your point, so now do what you are told”.

            Look I agree with your assessment Biden is as bad as you say. I just would not put him at full blown Fascist yet. Or Trump even. The SCOTUS, majority of Republicans, just backed LGBTQ rights, saved DACA, and another judge decided Bolton can release his scathing critique of the POTUS.  We have news networks with scathing editorials and allowing on guests to critique the POTUS. Those things do not happen in an actual Fascist state.

            My argument is the it very well COULD move there if Trump is re-elected. You ain’t seen nothin yet.  He’s firing the IG.  Today he announced he is replacing three senior editors of Voice of America with his own sycophant Michael Pack,

            https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53111704

            The heads of Radio Free Europe, Asia, Middle East Broadcasting as well as the Open Technology Fund were ousted on Wednesday……………………….Michael Pack, a conservative filmmaker and former associate of ex-White House adviser Steve Bannon, has also begun to install Trump loyalists at the agency.

            In another four years your name may be on a list as a member of this website as an enemy of the state.  There may be no CNN or MSNBC, which you may have no tears about, but that is the slippery slope

            I realize that pragmatism is not a very sexy concept.  Calling Biden a nothing burger is agreeing with you, that he is just as Turd Way corporatist as Clinton, and  Obama.  ie… Nothing will change. Other than it will be Democratic corporatist appointments instead of Republican corporatists heading agencies. Yes, if you look at the big picture, economically speaking, it would not be much different than a Bush or a Clinton. Which is why we should be still working to nominate a real progressive next time.

            But you cannot tell me that a Judge Sotomayor is not better than a Judge Kavanaugh.  That Net Neutrality is not better than Corporate control ie. like Network TV. Even things like fighting for protecting patients from insurance companies denials for pre-existing conditions. Of course we want M4A, but my argument would be that if the public gets a taste of what government could provide in a national way, they will be more open to further rights in future. ie… Once gay marriage was protected, it became more accepted, at least by the majority. Same with pot legalization in those States at least.

            Also you cannot tell me having those few progressive reps that exist in the Democratic party cannot do more fighting from within, have more influence on policy, scant though it may be, if their own party is in power. Putting at least a small check on the oligarchs in charge. At least its a stop gap.

            Sanders could have moved the needle forwards, even if he was stopped from actually fulfilling all of his platform. Even if he wasn’t left enough for some. It would have opened the door for acceptance of further progressive legislation. (By the time AOC becomes President!). And I’m still gutted that he didn’t overcome the unfair obstacles put in front of him by the DNC, and won.

            But another 4 years of Trump would move the needle way further right, maybe even to the point of no return. He has already normalized many things never before thought possible. A Biden Presidency would continue the subservience to corporations over people, yes. I agree. It sucks. I have never in the past subscribed to voting for the “best of the two evils”, but this time, one of the evils is way ahead of the other one, enough to subscribe this time.

            This is completely my own take. I am not ordering anyone to follow it.

             

            • #328562
              djean111
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 4,491

              You said

              Are you willing to risk that because Sleepy Joe is too status quo?  Too nothingburger?  I think Demcrats wasted a lot of America’s time by nominating Biden, and its a crippling blow considering the highs we had in the first weeks of the primary voting, and the promise that brought. But suck it up sunshine. There are brighter days ahead. So yes we have to vote Biden to make sure Trump and Fascism do not win, and then slog through at least 4 years of holding the forte, while we figure out something else.  I really don’t see any other choice.  Sarandon and others have made their point. He’s really really bad, and we don’t want that.  It should be obvious now how dangerous it is to allow this orange pig to govern one more day.  This is a unique danger, we have to accept the loss and live to win another day.

              “But suck it up sunshine” sure sounds like you telling progressives to vote for the blue.  And “Sarandon and others have made their point” – oooh, yes, I paraphrased – but your point is that the point has been made that Biden is bad, but so what, vote for him anyway.  Nit-picking that I did not have an exact quote – not the same as actually putting words in your mouth.  And I do not see Biden putting anyone liberal or progressive in the Supreme Court.  I really do not.  It would be a “working with his brothers across the aisle” thing, as Biden has already promised.  Working with the GOP just, IMO, gives the GOP what they want.  “Another day” is eight more years.  Nope.  Biden is against every damn thing Bernie is for.  I will not help enable that.

        • #328495
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 16,388

          @progrockinprog By Fascist I mean corporatist, one who believes in using government power to advance corporate interests, which Biden has done his entire career. He’s also a racist. His crime bill was to the right of Ronald Reagan, and designed to specifically target working class people in general and black people in particular. Obama picked him as VP to comfort the racists, FFS. Barry had to prove he wasn’t that kind of a negro.

          I have personal reasons not to vote for Joe Biden. He pushed through bankruptcy deform, which is costing me an extra $8000 right now, $8000 which would have been discharged under previous bankruptcy law. Biden offers nothing for myself, my family, or my community.

          Sure, Trump’s bad, but he has ripped the mask off, and Biden won’t be able to put it back on, not with 20+% unemployment. If Biden gets elected and then does nothing about the Second Great Depression which we are entering, which is exactly what he’ll do, what do you think will happen then? I don’t know, maybe the proper question is who the last President of the United States should be, Trump or Biden? We live in revolutionary times, and the more people who think it can’t happen here, the more likely a real revolution becomes.

          All that said, there’s nothing wrong with voting for Biden over Trump. There are perfectly good rational reasons for doing that, and you expressed some of them. The converse is equally true. I won’t vote for either of them; that’s my own choice. You are free to make yours. This is not DU. We will not vote-shame here.

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #327682
      Deadpool
      Keymaster
      • Total Posts: 4,020
    • #328443
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 6,287

      WA State is blue enough so that I can afford to write Sanders in.  Local third parties just don’t give a rat’s posterior about voter contact (except Socialist Alternative).

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #328535
      srobert
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 42

      “He has said very much in public that he has no empathy for those of my generation (millenials) that he doesn’t think “young people” these days have it rough.”

      As a working class boomer, I’ve observed that when I was your age, we were getting screwed over by the upper class, but not as badly as the generations that have followed us. What I like about millenials is they are at least smart enough to know that they’re getting screwed. And they can’t be so easily gaslighted by an asshole like Biden into believing that things are going better for them.

      Anyway back to the subject at hand, I speculate that Trump’s response to COVID-19, and the economic depression that accompanies it, have pretty much cemented a Biden win. And Biden’s instinct is that he can best enhance that advantage by seeking out economic conservative anti-Trump Republicans. Biden will feel no pressure whatsoever to appease the progressive wing of the Democratic party. Of course that means that Biden will figure that he became President without the support of progressives. And we’ll get nothing from the Biden Presidency. Of course if we give him our votes, we’ll still get nothing, but we can feel like chumps for four years.

      Despite all my reservations, if Joe Biden were to announce that he had a “come to Bernie” moment about Medicare for All between now and November, then I would vote for him. Between now and then I’ll be putting some effort into getting the Green party onto my state ballot. Petitions have to be signed and submitted to my state’s Secretary of State.

    • #328569
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 898

      Welcome home and the best thing about this place is we can talk these issues out with out being kicked out.

      That said I very much disagree with your comments about Trump being so much worse.  Trump is no different he is an empire builder on the backs of the poor.  The difference is he never learned to be quiet, so he broadcasts his disdain for the lower classes the people who are not white the youth.  Biden and the rest of the dc slime feel the same way they just try to hide it with bent knee bullshit.  Do you really think Obama was some how better?  The man who went on a slaughter spree in 5 new countries plus added to the 2 on going slaughters?  Obama who made it legal to slaughter Americans without trial? Obama who made spying on all of us A OK? Who told us during the gulf oil spill not to worry BPs got this while taking money from them!  Or bush. Who aloud planes to fly into our buildings and flew out the perpetrators, then started 2 wars an countries that had little to no real ability to stop us.  I actually think these Democrats and republicans are so much worse then Trump because They pretend they give a crap And they sucker people into thinking they give a crap. Trump does not know how to play that game and because of him the youth are seeing the reality of the American democracy that was a farce from the time it gave white land owners the power.   The young people in this country are standing up and more and more of us are standing behind them. We are all ready in a failed state, Biden will not slow it down stop it or change anything, because trump let the cat out of the bag in a way the democrats never would. The countries around the world are starting to walk away, I want them to keep walking so we stop the slaughter, the starvation, the massive bipartisan pentagon spending!

      Earthartist

      • #328725
        ProgRockinProg
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 48

        Thank you.  And thanks for being cordial.  Believe me, it is odd for me to be on this side of the fence.  I am used to battling the Biden Bros on THAT site.

        I guess I just disagree in that I think he, and more importantly who he surrounds himself with, who gloms onto him, from Steven Miller etc..Smarter fascists than he is, is what will catapult the nation into a full fledged Fascist state.  All it takes is a few well placed compliments. He is such an easy mark. A Biden, or Dole, or a Romney, or even a Jeb Bush, would be bad for progressive advancements. But bad is better than irrevocably destructive.  Like I said, I usually deplore the “best of the two evils” approach to voting, but there is a limit to that abhorrence, surely.

        And at least reps like AOC can have somewhat of a voice. And if Biden wins he knows he will have to give at least a token to the left. With Trump not only will there be no token, but he’ll smash up the carousel.

        I know the slow boiling frogs is dangerous, more so than cranking up the heat.  But we have just tried that, and Biden still won the nomination. There still wasn’t enough of a scare to get out the youth and new voters to keep the Sanders momentum going. I am afraid that another 4 years of Trump not only still won’t garner enough for a revolution. That all it will do is give REAL fascists the time and space, to completely destroy any chance of progressive Democrats ever winning. The only way left will be a violent physical revolution. And I know some here actually want that, but IMO the public is just too stupified by the hyper-spectacle of this modern info-tainment culture, half of them believing in fake news from the right, and the other half the fake news from the so-called traditional news sources. Half don’t vote, and would probably frown on any AntiFa “troublemakers”.  So would the armed forces. And the heavily armed RW militias. So we’d probably lose any new civil war too. Or at least it would drag on for decades of blood and guts. Maybe in the end, our children could finally storm the White House, and declare a people’s parliament.

        But I just think we should first exhaust all options to do it peacefully first. And that is still possible, I am an optimist.  I think Biden will have pressure to move more towards a universal healthcare plan, increase min wage. If enough vote D, they could take the Senate and House. Which I don’t think the establishment Dems even want. I think they were happy that Mitch gave Obama an excuse not to go too progressive. But a majority would embolden Sanders and Warren and others to present bills that force the Dem leadership to address those issues themselves. It would put those topics in the public debate. I think this kind of shift in acceptance in thinking would get us closer to a true progressive administration sooner.

        Going with the honey over the stick approach. That if enough taste how sweet it could be, they will want more. I don’t think for instance that the GOP will get away with putting the pre-existing conditions cop-out back in the bottle, just like not stopping the momentum to legalize weed, or reverse gay marriage. The stick approach would entail a long hard road, living under a Nazi state for a long time. Trump would probably not step down next time, or hand it over to his son or daughter. There would be no “librul media” as they define it, left as the fifth estate.  This website would be blocked. These are my honest beliefs. I know it is gut-wrenching to hold ones nose and vote for the same old same old. I get it.  I feel the same.  But I have to separate the heart from the head, and I believe that honey, even a tiny drop on the tongue, will open more eyes to the possibilities of what we could have,… the whole bee farm. Than allowing the fascists to take over and smash all the bee hives and kill the queen.

        But I could be wrong. And I’m thinking Biden will win anyways, if the Dems don’t fuck it up like usual.  So we will have to do the inside job route anyways. I would have obviously preferred Sanders.

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