Trump faces impeachment again as Democrats make mockery of Constitution

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    • #393881
      jbnw
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      • Total Posts: 3,586

      This is from NBC News at https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-faces-impeachment-again-democrats-make-mockery-constitution-ncna1253751 . What do you think? Is it a waste of time, effort and money again? Personally, I don’t believe it’s worth it – the Congress should have better things to do.

      The president will leave office in ignominy even if Congress does nothing. Seeking vengeance will only further inflame his supporters and undermine democracy.
      By Kelly Jane Torrance, member of the New York Post’s editorial board

      President Donald Trump thought denying the outcome of November’s election might save his political career, but in fact, it almost certainly hastened its end. Two months of relentless talk of a “stolen election” didn’t simply make him look like a sore loser — they spurred his supporters to seize the Capitol last Wednesday, leading to five deaths. Any argument that these were patriots was put to rest by images of the mob grappling with police and carting off stolen property while reportedly smearing feces inside hallways.

      America was aghast, not just at the act but that the president himself created the potential for this disaster. Trump had teased the idea of announcing a 2024 presidential run on Jan. 20, the day Joe Biden is inaugurated, but that’s now unlikely: Trump’s political career is over. Even many die-hard supporters were horrified at the happenings of Jan. 6 and put some blame on him; plenty of Republican politicians without his baggage will aggressively pursue his base and have the standing to do so.

      But that’s not enough for House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif. On Monday, Democrats submitted a resolution calling on Vice President Mike Pence to activate the 25th Amendment to declare the president “incapable of executing the duties of his office,” and making Pence acting president. Republicans are pushing back, so Pelosi also introduced an article of impeachment.

      Neither idea is a good one. American democracy has survived nearly four years of Trump; it can survive nine days more. There’s understandably a desire to punish Trump for his shocking (but not surprising) behavior in riling up an already angry crowd headed to the Capitol. But that’s not what these constitutional remedies were designed to do. Using them for vengeance makes a mockery of them. And seeking vengeance isn’t going to help America heal — or force those behind Wednesday’s outrageous events to take responsibility for their actions.

    • #393885
      Utopian Leftist
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      • Total Posts: 512

      I’ll venture to guess I’m the only poster at this board who thinks so, but I believe something must be done about this insurrection, for the same reason that Bernie does: precedent.

      If we allow a sitting President, just once, to incite a mob to riot, they’d do it every election. And next time they might just catch up to politicians with those handcuffs . . . as appealing as it sounds, it is just not right and can’t be allowed even in a faux democracy such as ours.

      Granted, impeachment is a hollow gesture as it has no chance of passing while the man is in office. But even a hollow gesture is better than doing nothing at all, which would give the other side tacit approval.

      Whether Trump incited the riot directly through the exact words or not, is irrelevant. There is no way to watch that video and still argue that he did not commit the equivalent of yelling “fire!” in a crowded theater. Any fool would know better.

      "All fascism is a result of a failure of the left to provide a viable alternative." ~ Trotsky

      • #393898
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,586

        It’s why district attorneys don’t bother courts with cases where they know they won’t get a conviction.

      • #393904
        retired liberal
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,591

        Donald J. Trump cannot be allowed to just walk away from what he has done. That sets another president in this country’s downward spiral around the drain. We have to draw the line somewhere.

        We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
        If you are wrong, it will be because you are not cynical enough.
        Both major political parties are special interest groups enabling each other for power and money, at the expense of the people they no longer properly serve…
        Always wear a proper mask when out and about. The life you save could be both yours and mine.

      • #393910
        incognito
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 4,554

        @utopianleftist

        Either Impeachment or the 14th Amendment Sec. 3 so he can never run for office again.

        We cannot have that man running around for the next four years, meeting with his Proud Boys, Militias and White Supremacists and frothing them into a frenzy for four years until he runs again. Good Goddesses… we’d be dealing with a mob like no other by then and if he lost? Whew. They would destroy what’s left of this country.

        He needs to go away for good. Prison is my preference. Maybe NY prosecutors will get him. 👍

      • #393969
        A Simple Game
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 963

        Impeachment could break the downward spiral in the quality of candidates we now face for President.  We only think we hit the bottom with Trump.  Yes I am including Biden in this.

        But I think the best case scenario would be if it forced Trump to resign.  That would be less likely to stir up the rabble that thinks his crap doesn’t stink.  I don’t even care if Pence pardons him, we would still have the State’s AG’s to take care of him.

         

    • #393888
      NV Wino
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 6,747

      It’s a matter of preventing him from doing more. And as Bernie said, precedence. Too many people have been getting away with too much for too long. It’s time to stop the so called immunity that government officials assume they have. This is one way to do it. Impeach (and remove if possible) the motherfucker.

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

    • #393890
      PADemD
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      • Total Posts: 2,203

      Impeachment will prevent Trump from ever holding office again.

      • #393897
        jbnw
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        • Total Posts: 3,586

        Only a conviction in the Senate will remove him from office, and the step of forbidding him from holding office requires a separate vote if I recall correctly.

        • #393914
          Babel 17
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 4,277

          @jbnw

          The Biden administration, and State Attorneys General, could claim a yooge victory, and Trump could save a ton of money on legal fees, and maybe fines and such. As a convicted felon he could never run for Federal office.

          Ironically he could still be influential, and his supporters would fund whatever money making opportunities he got into. He might self publish a book and keep all the profit, and start up competition to Twitter and Facebook. He could put his moniker on an online news network.

          Biden might get pressured to bail Trump out, as Trump might have given copies of all the dirt on the Biden family, and other important people, to people who could leak it. That’s the problem with being compromised. You don’t have to have broken laws in order to be blackmailed.

    • #393894
      Passionate Progressive
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      • Total Posts: 2,746

      that it’s a distraction and a waste of time.  Impeachment wen used as it is being used will not stop this kind of protest from happening again nor will doing nothing prevent it from happening again…the process is polarizing….The country is on a downward spiral and politicians never learn from their mistakes….Also heard the argument that going through this process will not preclude Trump from running again.

      The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.....Martin Luther King '63

    • #393895
      MizzGrizz
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      • Total Posts: 3,014

      She has no intention of impeaching a president who will be gone in a week.Even with the bipartisan revulsion against the events,votes for that simply aren’t there.

    • #393907
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,586

      https://jackpineradicals.com/boards/topic/would-this-be-enough-to-punish-trump-for-attempting-to-overturn-the-election/#post-393750

      https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/533469-swift-second-impeachment-would-damage-the-constitution

      Credit to @gamemeat @salemcourt

      Despite broad and justified condemnation of his words, Trump never actually called for violence or riots. But he urged his supporters to march on the Capitol to raise their opposition to the certification of electoral votes and to back the recent challenges made by a few members of Congress. Trump told the crowd “to peacefully and patriotically make your voices be heard.”

      These kinds of legal challenges have been made by Democrats in the past under the Electoral Count Act, and so Trump was pressing Republicans in Congress to join the effort on his behalf. He ended his remarks by saying a protest at the Capitol was meant to provide Republicans “the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country.” He told the crowd, “Let us walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.” Moreover, marches are common across the country to protest actions by the government.

      The legal standard for violent speech is found with Clarence Brandenburg versus Ohio. As a free speech advocate, I criticized that 1969 case and its dangerously vague standard. But even it would treat the remarks of Trump as protected under the First Amendment. With that case, the government is able to criminalize speech “directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action.”

      There was no call for lawless action by Trump. Instead, there was a call for a protest at the Capitol. Moreover, violence was not imminent, as the vast majority of the tens of thousands of protesters were not violent before the march, and most did not riot inside the Capitol. Like many violent protests in the last four years, criminal conduct was carried out by a smaller group of instigators. Capitol Police knew of the march but declined an offer from the National Guard since they did not view violence as likely.

      So Congress is now seeking an impeachment for remarks covered by the First Amendment.

    • #393911
      Babel 17
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,277

      😉

      Progressives who are pissed off at the lack of movement on Medicare For All can now be lumped together with angry Trumpers. Cliff Notes: Those progressives are now to be considered dangerously violent. Let’s use photos of their angry faces on the same page that has photos of angry Trumpers.

      The headline can be about Pelosi standing firm against the lunatic fringes of the left and right.

      Not to worry, the FBI has them in their sights. David Brock will provide the talking points on how they’re natural allies, and jointly funded by Russia!.

      Whoops, conspiracy theory alert, lock that kind of talk down!

       

    • #393915
      Awknid
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      • Total Posts: 101

      and should include the rest of the Republicans who pushed the lie that Trump won.   If they let it go it will never end.  Too bad it is divisive.  But we’re already divided.

      • #394331
        whispers
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        • Total Posts: 448

        The democrats are defined by the word hypocrites.  I laugh at them.  I am truly repulsed by all their frenzied theater and supposing themselves to above their citizens.

    • #393916
      Satan
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      • Total Posts: 4,358

      There is no goddamned middle ground here. Round them up. Put bullets in their heads. Send them to Hell. Not that I want them here, but at least I will treat them accordingly.

      Failure to do this means that you have categorized their domestic terrorism as “acceptable” and it will only get worse from here.

      These miserable fucks should have been exterminated after Tim McVeigh & Oklahoma City, if not earlier (i.e. the Randy Weaver Nazi compound in Idaho) Things have escalated 666% since that orange piece of shit moved into the White House. Enough is enough.

      "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". - John F. Kennedy

      • #393928
        GZeusH
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,474

        Send these miscreants to the lightning bolt range so Thor and I can take turns parting their hair with a few million volts.   Since Rudy doesn’t have any hair, we’ll just write 9/11 on his backside.

        • #394333
          whispers
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 448

          round them up and put bullets in their heads? I thought this was the kind of talk these “others” are said to use.  I don’t expect to be the judge.  You will have your turn…later.

          • #394347
            Cold Mountain Trail
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            • Total Posts: 11,232

            “You will have your turn…later.”

            –now what’s that supposed to mean?

             

          • #394361
            Satan
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            • Total Posts: 4,358

            I’m not even counting the KKK types who were obviously around long before that. That was bad enough. But this “Turner Diaries” mentality that fueled Randy Weaver, Tim McVeigh, and every fucking last one of these MAGAtt terrorist freaks has hit the point of escalation in recent years to the point where it now threatens the fabric of society itself.

            Now that’s not to say mortal society was perfect before the MAGAtts. I’m pretty much on the record as saying that the USA has been in a toilet spiral since the 1980 election for reasons that have nothing to do with Cheeto and his cult of rabid dogs. But they are definitely the worst manifestation of it.

            You cannot reason with these people (and I use the term loosely). I suppose you could lock them all up if you’re opposed to executing them, but  – much like child molesters and meth dealers – they shouldn’t be ever let out, because rehabilitation just ain’t going to happen.

            Now just in case I need to clarify here, I’m not talking about the millions of people that voted for Cheeto. Or even the majority of those who attended his idiotic rallies. But those who broke into the Capitol with the intent of committing terrorism – and yes, that’s why they were there – and those who are planning similar actions right now,  you either stop these pieces of shit, or you live in the even more fucked up world that their diseased minds wants to create.

            I don’t have to live in that world. I’m in Hell. But even Hell without air conditioning would be better for the average mortal than a world where The Turner Diaries are considered “gospel”.

            "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". - John F. Kennedy

            • #394363
              JonLP
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              As soon as they broke in the windows they set up and constructed a gallows. They planned on executing people. There is also a lot we don’t know that happened inside that building.

              Trump tweeted while this was going on and shortly after Pence was escorted out.

              Trump tweeted that Pence “didn’t have the courage to do what should have been done” at 2:24 p.m. Afterwards, Trump followers on far-right social media called for Pence to be hunted down, and the mob began chanting, “Where is Pence?” and “Find Mike Pence!”Outside, the mob chanted, “Hang Mike Pence!,”

              https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_storming_of_the_United_States_Capitol

              They also ransacked the Senate Parliamentarian’s office and most people including myself doesn’t know what a Parliamentarian does or where his office is.

              You also have to look at the funding. Turning Point USA sent 80 buses there. Alex Jones paid $500,000 to host the rally, etc

               

              Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

            • #394509
              whispers
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              • Total Posts: 448

              Will get his chance when they are all in hell

              • #394521
                Satan
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                • Total Posts: 4,358

                ….but that doesn’t mean you let them get away with their dragonshit up there on Earth.

                "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". - John F. Kennedy

                • #394529
                  whispers
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 448

                  We should investigate and prosecute those actually planning harm.  I am not talking about letting people off to do more “dragonshit”.  But, I really do want there to be a lot of thought put into the consequences, such as anti protest laws and freedom of speech, before we all get silenced and locked up.  This scares me more…the Rush to remove our civil liberties whenever challenges arise.  White supremacy ideologies disgust me.  So does a rush to punishment or a push against any civil liberties that we thought we had.

            • #394520
              whispers
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 448

              There are a lot of people in the world who can not be reasoned with, and a lot of them are NOT Trump supporters, and they vote blue because they are told to do so as some kind of “lesser evilism”.  I prefer trials before anyone gets executed.  I think you were being hyperbolic.  Propaganda rules so a lot of citizens don’t know what to believe .  Don’t you ever wonder if what you are believing is really the truth?  I do.  But Facts?  Facts can be twisted and used for deceit.  So, it’s who and what you trust.

      • #394008
        LiberalCat
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,283

        Very well said!

      • #394355
        kelly
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 278

        listen- taking that hot button terminology and applying it willy nilly to your imagined enemies is fascist bullshit we can all recognize. Not to get PC on you, but much like tarring these hillbillies with the Holocaust, your terminology is grotesquely offensive. I dont know how many card carrying victims of terrorism post here, but my closest relative was murdered in Saudi Arabia by the guy they most likely falsely blamed for 9/11/01.

        Of course, our arbiters of what is and what is not terrorism chose to not just ignore bin laden’s culpability in the deaths of numerous members of the Air Force, but they thought it would be best to pin it on Iran after 9/11/01 in abject indifference to the surviving real victims.

        so fuck anyone who plays loose with that word.

        shame on you , if you can manage it.

      • #394473
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 19,388

        Terrorism by definition is murdering, or terrorizing, the civilian population as a means of advancing an ideological, political, or religious goal. Congresscritters and police do not count.

        It was, however, an insurrection by definition, which is why the one Article of Impeachment actually makes sense this time.

        But @kelly is right. Be careful about throwing around that term, or else the Biden Administration just may consider thee and me domestic terrorists.

         

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

        • #394487
          jbnw
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 3,586

          Setting precedents means the world changes, and they don’t remember that it may come back with them in the cross-hairs.

          I still think Biden could have been impeached for exactly what Trump was impeached for – withholding money until a foreign government gives in to demands.

          And if Trump is impeached twice – and I expect him to be – it remains an option, or more reasons will be found to bring an impeachment investigation against Biden. It’s not like they’ll be able to remove him from office —

          The Democrats have no interest in healing – no matter what the said during the election. That’s over – no need to reminder what they campaigned on.

          Remember this?

          Pelosi cites Ecclesiastes in response to Trump, says it is a time for healing

          https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/02/politics/nancy-pelosi-trump-church-response/index.html

    • #393920
      HalfCentury Man
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      • Total Posts: 847

      But only if all potential charges are filed. Inciting Insurection, tax evaison, bank fraud, obstruction of justice, campaign finance irregularitues, violations of the emoluments clause, election tampering, just all of it. Make him and his ilk testify under oath in a public setting.

      And then maybe we can actually heal as a nation.

      Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

      John F. Kennedy: 13 March 1962.

    • #393923
      snot
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,154

      we need to ensure there are consequences for anyone who broke the law in connection with this episode, including Trump.

      I’ve also seen conflicting reports re- whether impeachment would bar him from running again; if so, it’s worthwhile on that ground.

      That said, I also believe that we should be making every effort to build bridges to those Trump supporters who did not break the law, and to ameliorate the underlying causes of the anger, frustration, and fear that made them so susceptible to Trump’s manipulations.  Because I do agree with Chris Hedges that if we don’t, we’ll pretty quickly find another, more competent fascist in his place.

      Destruction is easy; creation is hard, but more interesting.

    • #393971
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,223

      strive for ‘bipartisanship’ rather than focus on investigating and punishing past criminal behavior.

      Partly that may be sincere since continuing, increasing hyper-partisanship does little for anyone other than politicians. Partly is may be ‘if we don’t investigate/punish the ‘other team’ now maybe they won’t investigate/punish us 4 or 8 years from now’.

      Perhaps some version of South Africa’s “Truth and Reconciliation Commission“?

      The Big Lie: "Make the lie big, Make it simple, Keep saying it, And eventually they will believe it." AH.

      "Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect." JG

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not solved with more nationalism.

    • #394011
      djean111
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      • Total Posts: 5,676

      Pretty sure that republicans are not going to do that, either.  IMO, the nations has not been “healed”, DELIBERATELY, for a very long time.

      What exactly does that mean, “healing as a nation” – that seems just a smarmy slogan.

    • #394012
      ronRonnie1
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 375

      This way he can’t run again in the future.  He needs to pay.  But there isn’t a dime’s worth of difference between StopTheSteal/Qtards and OMGRussia!11!

      Make the insurrectionists pay, but then it’s just gonna be establishment Dems and their boosters sucking each other off for 4 years.  It’s all so gross.  All around so gross.

    • #394047
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,170

      Let NY deal with him. By now impeachment has become just

      a tedious partisan political game. Fancy wants to play games,

      okay; but then the Repugs may answer with a Biden/Ukraine/China

      investigation. Those, who went into the Capitol should be punished,

      yet I doubt they will. Instead we should have a serious investigation

      on the lack of protection of the Capitol by Congress and let the heads

      of those guilty for it roll.Again, I doubt it.

       

    • #394058
      Earthartist
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      • Total Posts: 1,234

      I have really mixed feelings about this. On one hand Trump needs to be held accountable for this and I do not want to see him back in 4 years. On the other hand the Dems have poked trump from the get go with the russia bs and everything else they could drum up. The Dem party has created as much hate and vitriol as Trump maybe more. I think I agree with sadoldgirl the people who were behind this show need to be rounded up and tried  and convicted and that will not happen because we will never find out who made the orders to not have security, we will never find out who gave directions to all the offices and unlocked all the doors to the offices and tunnels. If Trump gets impeached I want the whole of congress to go with the impeachment I don’t think there is but a handful of these elites who is not guilty of corruption.  Take not how the discussion of Biden’s war monger cabinet has stopped.

      !!!!!! We are skewed either way

      Earthartist

      • #394364
        JonLP
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,971

        But it was the FBI that was investigating Russia and they didn’t even include Trump in the investigation until he fired Comey (after Trump also pressured to let the Flynn investigation go who was one of the real targets of the Russia investigation.

        Over time Trump gutted and fired most of the agents that worked on the Russia investigation which were the best agents they had who were also used in the Hillary email investigation. Same team.

        Anyways Trump muddied the waters on the Russia stuff but after the Capitol riots Trump’s own lawyer believes he committed treason which is why he advised his advisors to stay away from him.

        Let this radicalize you rather than lead you to despair - Mariame Kaba

    • #394466
      MizzGrizz
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,014

      ..not yelling for his head on a plate,though I would support a censure resolution.

      One more example of how the spoiled brat boomers can’t even wait a week on something.He’ll be out of there in a matter of days so what does it matter.

    • #394469
      Hobbit709
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,254

      They’ve made a mockery of the Constitution for some years now.

      I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

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