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Home Topics in Depth Education Updated: Trump just laid out a pretty radical student debt plan

  • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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    Updated: Trump just laid out a pretty radical student debt plan

    Note: I just moved this from Late Breaking News to Education. WaPo fooled me by emailing it to me this morning! I’m so brain-fuzzed these days that I saw the date of 13 and didn’t notice it was October, not November. It was the first I’d seen from either candidate in GE on the student loan repayment program, so is new to me and is of personal importance. I see it as a good sign (for me) that his proposal is to the left of the current plan.

    Donald Trump is promising the most liberal student loan repayment plan since the inception of the federal financial aid program, in a clear effort to court the millions of Americans struggling with the high cost of college.

    “We would cap repayment for an affordable portion of the borrower’s income, 12.5 percent, we’d cap it. That gives you a lot to play with and a lot to do,” Trump said at a rally in Columbus, Ohio, on Thursday. “And if borrowers work hard and make their full payments for 15 years, we’ll let them get on with their lives. They just go ahead and they get on with their lives.”

    The terms proposed by the Republican nominee are more generous than all of the existing government programs that let borrowers cap their monthly student loan payments to a percentage of their earnings. Even the latest income-driven plan, known as Revised Pay as You Earn (REPAYE), forgives remaining debt after 20 years of payment, though it caps borrowers’ monthly bills to 10 percent of their income….

    …Trump’s campaign said he would consolidate the existing suite of repayment plans and apply his 15-year income-based plan to federal and private student loans. The candidate is not providing any cost projections, but the campaign said the plan will be paid for by lowering federal spending and the savings from reducing defaults on student loans.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/10/13/trump-just-laid-out-a-pretty-radical-student-debt-plan/?wpisrc=nl_most-draw10&wpmm=1

     

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    • snowfinch (47 posts)
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      1. Radical ??

      Where do they get these terms?

      It’s slightly better, maybe, than what’s going; but it’s not nearly

      good enough.

      I mean, 15 years to pay off a college loan.  I would much prefer

      a robust higher education finance bill that provides students

      with a debt-free, or at the least an extremely low-debt, education!

      Also, I mistrust Trump automatically.  If he’s doing this to appease

      the young people, it’s only because he doesn’t feel the need to serve

      the college loanshark industry and is using this as a distraction from

      his atrocious and far worse agenda regarding the prison and detention

      industries.

      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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        3. wtf? it's orwellian, since before reagan, most kids were able to get through

        school without any loans at all.

        I did it myself two times.  working a student job and working summers covered my grad school.

        but that was when tuition and housing didn’t cost a fortune and some kind of job was there for the taking.

      • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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        10. 1.this is for (former) students already in the income-based loan programs

        This is the first I’ve seen that issue addressed by either side, and since I’m in the program, I’ve been worried that any change in administration could bring drastic, negative changes to the program. Up until now, all anybody has talked about is future students; nothing about those already saddled with unpayable loans.

        2. It’s not “15 years to pay off the loan.” It’s 15 years of “income based repayment” after which the loan is forgiven.

        3. It’s radical in that it is coming from a Republican and, if you bother to read the article, the rightwing think tanks are up in arms about it.

        4. It’s important in an unexpressed aspect. The current income-based repayment programs have a lower cap on the repayment and take up to 25 years of repayments before the loan is forgiven. What that translates into is that the loans grow at a faster rate and for a longer time.

        When those loans are forgiven, the student then is charged income tax on the forgiven amount.

        At 25 years, my loans would come due when I’m 83 and would be astronomical. The taxes would be very high, and I would lose my home trying to pay off those taxes, unless I was permanently disabled.

        For a student that graduated at age 25, they’d have the tax hit at age 50 and  have a good chance of wiping out any savings they’d set aside, or losing their homes, etc.

        By increasing the cap slightly and dramatically shortening the time to forgiveness, Trump is significantly lowering the amount forgiven and therefore the tax hit at the time of forgiveness.

        He’s also “shrinking government” by consolidating all the existing income-based programs into a single one, to reduce administration costs, which will help pay for this.

        • Bluesuedeshoes (2040 posts)
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          13. Yay! Thank you for saying that. All true. This is not a bad deal… at all.

          • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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            50. But at the same time, India is suing us in the WTO to cough up the jobs they say

            they were promised. And they want to make US Social Security benefits portable so their workers can take the benefits home in large numbers. that will screw up the US exemption from G[redacted]S, which currently allows us to have Social Security only because its non-commercial.

             

            The same general issue applies to VA and all other benefit programs – they have to be completely free and noncommercial or they have to be privatized.

            "Out of many, one"
        • trudyco (1337 posts)
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          20. So it's higher potential amount you pay per month cuz 12.5% vs 10%

          But the amount you are forgiven is less because forgiving kicks in at 15 years instead of 25 years. Very important if interest is continually tacked on and your 12.5% of what you make payment isn’t very big the compounding of interest can really make your loan balloon.

          He was also talking about restructuring tax brackets so possibly your forgiven loan amount might also have a lower tax hit. I hope when he consolidates he gets rid of Sallie Mae, a real racket.

          Will he find a way to encourage colleges to get their tuition and fee increases in line with inflation? It seems that students get more stringent requirements for their majors, requiring them to go for more than 4 years yet they still have stupid pre-reqs in some cases (why is pre med required to take bio, genetics, chem, bio chem, org chem, calculus and physics but no nutrition class?), and there has been a trend of using lecturers who come and go along with students teaching courses and online courses that cost as much as an in-person-with-a-real-teacher courses. Costs should be going down, or at least staying with inflation.

          Overall, this sounds encouraging. Maybe Trump really does want to make America Great Again.

          • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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            51. No, he wants to get the government out of looking like major demons when they

            give a whole generations’ future jobs away to foreign firms and leave some of them struggling under hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt ANYWAY.

            "Out of many, one"
            • trudyco (1337 posts)
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              62. I don't think he will take the jobs away.

              But he might crash the economy into a Great Depression. We are half there already.

        • tularetom (1824 posts)
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          25. If the compounded present value of your loan at age 50

          Exceeds your future earning potential at that age, you got ripped off by your university not by the provider of your student loan.

          I went home with a waitress the way I always do  How was I to know she was with the russians, too?
          • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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            40. I blame the combined false federal government employment statistics,

            false State University claims, media lies, and a hospital human resource rep who lied to me (and at least one other student that I know of) about the salary range and starting salary.

            I know that I would *never* in a million years have taken this path had I known that all of the above lied.

            • The Federal Employment statistics projected 100% employment with 14% growth in the specific field (medical lab technician) for the foreseeable future.
            • The State University falsely claimed 100% employment of students graduating this program.
            • The hr rep inflated the starting salary by 25% plus a “per diem differential” that no longer existed.
            • the msm said “health care, health care, health care”

            I put everything on the line. I estimated the repayment amount accurately, calculated my living expenses accurately, and figured that at 3 days/week I broke even and 4 days/week paid off the loan and could save a little. I put in literally 18 hour days working p/t, studying and caring for my micro-farm. I graduated summa cum laude from a program that produced techs preferred by Mass General (according to the dept. head they contacted).

            Half the class could not even get interviews. Almost the entire rest of the class got part time/per diem 2 days/week except 1 student who got a summer job as a phlebotomist (half the rate of a tech), me who got 3 days/week per diem and a single graduate who a a full time job.

            My 3 days/week per diem were simply not enough; earning less than half what I’d been given every reason to anticipate. I stuck it out for 4 years, and then last summer was dumped without cause or notice or even being told. The rat-bastards left me to find it on the schedule, and then spent the next 2 months heading into winter playing mind games by holding out the promise of “a couple days” that never materialized.  This was after I bailed them out of an emergency over the summer when another tech went out on medical disability without any notice.

            The corruption and viciousness are at a level I’ve never experienced in my 63 years.

            Personally, I consider them odious loans based on the above. I realize that legally I have nothing.

             

             

            • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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              52. If you are willing to work for whatever is negotiated you likely could leave the

              country and get work under GATS Mode Four like millions of people in developed countries do. Although its been compared to modern day slavery, it will be enough to eat. Jobs like that are sustaining many poor countries. Medical technicians are one of their main exports. Coming soon to a hospital near you soon here too. They can pay less than (US) minimum wage legally I think.

              The way they tell it,  a whole generation priced themselves out of the global job market.  Shucks.

              "Out of many, one"
              • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                77. yet medical = one of the highest profit margins going.

                and all the workers are being sliced and diced to do the same work cheaper and cheaper

                I was looking at jobs the other day and saw ‘mental health counselors’ making something like $13/hour: that’s $27K.  Not even a middle class income.

    • closeupready (1175 posts)
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      2. I'd like to see him make student loans dischargeable in Chapter 7 bankruptcies.

      As they were once before.  If you can pay, you pay.  If you can’t, don’t, and take a hit to your credit rating, but life goes on.

      The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
      • farleftlib (1353 posts)
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        6. It was the rich students who ruined that option

        The ones who could most afford to pay it back declared bankruptcy and had the debt discharged. Poor kids struggled to repay a majority of the time. It didn’t occur to them to default or declare bankruptcy. As usual, a few bad apples ruin it for everybody.

        Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, that's all who ever have. Margaret Mead
        • closeupready (1175 posts)
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          7. Are you saying rich students committed bankruptcy fraud??

          I’m not sure I understand you here.

          I wasn’t aware that rich students with student loans were filing Chapter 7 – if they WERE, then their assets would have to be divulged to the court.  (Because hiding assets is bankruptcy fraud which is why, if I recall correctly, a certain real housewife was sent to prison last year.)

          The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
        • Mosby (243 posts)
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          12. its very hard to eliminate student loans via chap 7

          You have to prove “undue hardship”

          I think the real issue is why college is so expensive, the state university system not only collects tuition but is subsidized by the states. In AZ the taxpayers are paying in more that one billion dollars per year on top of tuition, where is all the money going?

          For one, we are subsidizing education for foreign students, Korea for example can’t begin to provide college education for its college age population so they get sent to the US. Same for the KSA, Lebanon, Taiwan and others. They should be paying for the FULL cost of there educations.

          Second, we allow big business, particularly the tech and pharmaceutical industries to do research on our dime, when I attended ASU there were whole floors in the CSE and other building that were off limits to students who were not “working” for the company that was doing research.

           

          • trudyco (1337 posts)
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            21. I thought Foreign students were paying full. That's why they are popular.

            But Pharma getting a free ride (possibly others, too) is an excellent point. The profits from the research should go more towards higher ed. Another trend is for cash strapped universities encouraging out of state students then charging them triple the in state rate, even though the state legislatures are not covering anything near 2/3 of tuition. So the out of state students are paying through the nose. They should pay exactly what it costs. In other words, the only difference in price should be what the state pays for in-state students.

            • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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              43. I suspect my Somalian classmates were subsidized.

            • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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              65. China threatened to bring their students home.

              if Trump puts quotas on Chinese goods.

              "Out of many, one"
              • trudyco (1337 posts)
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                66. Good. We are just training them to take our jobs away.

          • farleftlib (1353 posts)
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            39. There are tons of articles about who is benefitting from this crisis

            Bill Moyers site covers the best of the bunch IMHO. It’s another example of socializing the risk and privatizing the profit from student loan debt. It’s disgraceful and the not-well off students suffer the most risk.

            How Students’ Wealth is Redistributed to the Rich
            Student income loans transfer wealth to investors, risk to students.

            http://billmoyers.com/story/student-income-loans-transfer-wealth-investors-risk-students/

            Never believe that a few caring people can't change the world. For, indeed, that's all who ever have. Margaret Mead
            • Mosby (243 posts)
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              44. I wonder if that is one of the reasons

              Why the state university systems are so deadset against community colleges offering 4 year degrees.

            • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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              67. They sell them hope..

              to let them be happy just a few years longer.

              "Out of many, one"
          • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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            78. i read that accumulating real estate, administrators, and building new

            buildings were the major places the money was going.

            as adjuncts increase and tenured profs decrease but for big names.

            even when I was in grad school ta’s and adjuncts did most of the teaching.

      • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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        11. that doesn't work for people in mid-life who "retrained" for careers that

        ceased to exist in the fallout from ’08. It would force people to lose their homes, which may be the only life savings they have at this point.

        • closeupready (1175 posts)
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          18. I'm not a lawyer, but Chapter 13 allows debtors to retain their primary home.

          At least from what I understand.  Thus, homeowners struggling with student loan repayments have that option.

          The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
          • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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            19. I'm not a lawyer either, but the poster I responded to cited Chapter 7

            I never heard of Chapter 13 before.

            Regardless, neither party is offering bankruptcy as an option. Given what could have happened, I’m very happy with this proposal. It doesn’t make things any worse for me. In fact, if I fail to sell my home this spring so I can pay off the loan in full, then I believe the taxes that I’ll owe when it’s forgiven could be roughly half what the current payoff will be.

            • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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              69. The issue is one of INTERNATIONAL law. A 1995 treaty regulates "all measures aff

              a 1995 treaty regulates “all measures affecting trade in services”

              “The concept of measures affecting trade in services is broader than it might appear at
              first glance. According to Article XXVII(a), a measure could take virtually any form,
              including that of law, regulation, rule, procedure, decision, or administrative action.
              Second, the notion of affecting trade indicates a particularly broad scope of application;
              “affecting” is wider in reach than, for example, ‘‘regulating’’  or  ‘‘governing’’  trade  in services.”


              “Nevertheless, G is not omnipresent. It even excludes certain sectors or activities
              that  might  be  considered  mainstays  of  a  country’s  service  economy.  The  Agreement
              provides for two deliberate sector- and policy-specific exclusions. First, there is the so-called  governmental  service  carve-out  under  Article  I:3.  It  stipulates  that,  for  the purpose of the Agreement, services supplied in the exercise of governmental authority are  not  considered  to  be  services.  The  definition  of  such  services  rests  on  a  twin criterion:  they  are  supplied  neither  on  a  commercial  basis,  nor  in  competition  with one or more suppliers.”

              “It is relatively easy to list examples of ‘‘governmental services’’ that are relevant for
              virtually all countries, including fire protection, primary education, police and security
              services,  or  the  operations  of  central  banks.  Other  cases  are  less  clear,  however.  For
              example,  while  some  governments  provide  basic  health  services  for  free  via  a  public
              monopoly, others rely primarily on private commercial entities, i.e., medical practices
              and hospitals, among which patients are allowed to choose. (Such systems tend to be
              complemented  by  subsidized  health  insurance  schemes  to  ensure  a  degree  of  social
              equity.) Although there may be little doubt that the former systems are beyond the scope
              of G, as opposed to the latter, questions may arise in countries where free public
              provision,  e.g.  through  government  hospitals,  coincides  with  a  commercial  market
              segment.  Would  such  coexistence  be  deemed  to  constitute  competition  within  the
              meaning of Article I:3?  In the absence of common definitions, any answer necessarily entails an element of speculation. Economists normally tend to associate the existence of competition with
              attempts  of  rival  operators  who  may  use  various  marketing  instruments  (advertisements,  price  and/or  quality  differentiation)  to  attract  customers.  Accordingly,  if  a ‘‘governmental supplier’’ does not behave like a rival, it might not be deemed to be in competition.”

              “Additional questions may arise in cases where the relevant service is not
              provided for free, but in return for a certain fee or charge. If it is low in comparison to
              production  cost,  one  might  still  be  inclined  to  infer  that  no  commercial  interest  is
              involved. Again, however, there may be borderline cases. Although a highly profitable
              telecom monopoly would certainly be considered as operating on a commercial basis, is
              this equally true for the exclusive provider of local voice services that is kept afloat only
              through high (cross- ) subsidies?”

               

              "Out of many, one"
              • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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                71. sorry but I fail to see what international law has to do with my student loans

                and have no interest in wading through 1995 laws about trade in services. :shrug:

                • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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                  72. I should have used the phrase international treaties

                  You should use Google’s advanced search to search Public Citizen’s web site (citizen.org) for information on recent and pending developments in financial services in treaties. Such as TPP and [the worse one that I cannot name].

                   

                   

                   

                  "Out of many, one"
                  • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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                    73. why the fuck would I waste my time on that?

                    I took out my FAFSA loans between ’08 and ’11.

                    I’m fully aware of the disasters that TPP, TPIP and TISA (Trade in Services Agreement) are. I’m grateful that the Donald has killed TPP for now. TPIP will certainly not be far behind and hopefully TISA too.

                    But these have absolutely fucking nothing to do with my personal student loan situation. Please stop bothering me about it in this thread and in my PM; it’s getting kind of annoying.

                    • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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                      76. Okay

                      I’m sorry, i sent you one more PM before reading this.. wont send any more.

                      "Out of many, one"
          • Sriracha (2154 posts)
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            32. Chapter 13 requires repayment of the debts within 3 to 5 years.

            • closeupready (1175 posts)
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              35. Right, but repayments must be reasonable, and after completing repayments

              successfully, the court has the power to dissolve all remaining debts, isn’t that how it works?

              The opinions and views expressed herein are solely those of the author.
              • Sriracha (2154 posts)
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                38. While student debts are low priority debt.

                They can not be discharged. At least that is my understanding.

                Disclaimer: I’m not a lawyer in real life. But, I do occasionally play one on the internet.

      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        53. I think the loans became Non-dischargeable due to changes made bc of GATS

        during the Clinton Administration.

         

        GATS is the WTO “General Agreement on Trade in Services”

        :(

        "Out of many, one"
    • BillZBubb (2272 posts)
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      4. Hardly radical, ok nothing radical, about it except coming from a republican

      At least he’s addressing the issue, however weakly. It could have been worse.

      DemExit! Don't give the Democrats a dime. Don't identify as a Democrat. Drop Democratic identification below 20%. Only then will they support true progressive policy. Until then, corporate money rules.
    • Blackspade (2568 posts)
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      5. So incremental change….

      How Clintonian.

      This plan continues to ignore the reality that you can’t afford 12% on starvation wages.

      How about just making college debt free?

      • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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        17. 12% is the cap. If your wages are "starvation" (which mine were) then your

        payments are much lower.

        When I lost my job last year, my payments dropped to $0.

        And this isn’t about new students. This proposal is for students already in the income-based repayment program.

        • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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          74. Does the debt continue to grow?

          while you pay the 12% of your income?

          I spent a good chunk of my life paying off fairly modest (in today’s terms) student loans. I was in my mid 40s before I finished. It left me phobic of debt.

           

          There are complex trade agreements involving financial services, both existing ones (the WTO “GATS” agreement in particular).. and pending ones (the Trade in Services Agreement parts of which are on Wikileaks.)

          It seems to be popular for politicians to make promises that ignore these deals now.. but if they do they are unlikely to be kept. Carve outs have to go in at the beginning.. i.e. now.

           

          I don’t know, this is a complicated subject. I am just trying to point to a potential gotcha.. These deals are whats blocking public health care and free public education at the university level. The main reason why is its now framed that that would serve as a market access barrier preventing new low cost providers (companies from other countries) from providing services. US companies are expanding overseas and setting up branches there and they want other countries to give them access so they feel they have to trade access to the markets here. They would be unwilling to invest in those other countries, which might involve building expensive facilities, if they did not have access under terms such as “national treatment” and “most favored nation”. So in exchange the trade deals make it possible for other countries to enter our market here, and try to sell their services which may be more price competitive, its possible. If banks are multinationals, they may soon enjoy very extensive new rights to prevent or be compensated by taxpayers for any government action which adversely impacts their profits.

           

          "Out of many, one"
        • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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          79. That's not new. I had the same deal when I was supposed to

          repay one of my student loans in 2003 but wasn’t working.

      • trudyco (1337 posts)
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        22. You mean you can't afford 12% of what you earn?

      • Sriracha (2154 posts)
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        34. Why go to college if all it gets you is "starving wages"?

        Anyone can get that without a college education.

        • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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          75. Not necessarily

          I think that the kind of jobs that don’t require a substantial amount of knowledge are unlikely to be around much longer, due to automation. Its hard to say.

          "Out of many, one"
      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        54. Progressive liberalisation means that everything has to deregulate

        and can never re-regulate ever, because each successive change is captured.  See “HOW TO DESIGN TRADE AGREEMENTS IN SERVICES: TOP DOWN OR BOTTOM UP?” World Trade Organization Staff Working Paper ERSD-2013-08  page 8 “starting with “Binding market openness”

        "Out of many, one"
    • Kermitt Gribble (14 posts)
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      8. Meh..

      Nothing about reducing interest rates, even?? That, alone, would reduce payments considerably.

      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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        9. you don't get it. we need low to no interest for capital and 12% for

        college students, so capital can profit.

        cause they don’t own enough yet, they need to own it all.  and keep young people in hock for 15 years-plus.

        get it?

        such a frigging scam.

        • trudyco (1337 posts)
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          23. It's not 12% interest!

          • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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            58. It needs to be!

        • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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          57. He cant violate an international agreement. Why do you think Clinton

          made college loans non-dischargeable and eliminated AFDC? (which had the effect of a forbidden “zero quota” competing with payday lenders and other “innovative financial instruments”.

          Get your heads out of these websites and do some research. You’ll find that the US committed to forcing deregulation, and privatization and the only areas where they can maintain public services is when they pre-exist these agreements and remain completely free..

           

          We are forcing privatization on the whole world so, so breaking our own rules will never happen. Trump himself made that clear by making it clear that the loans would not be forgiven completely, and college made free. If its still charged for, the government cannot do this. It would be framed as a theft from legitimate suppliers of loan services and other financial services. Also, its after 1998. Right now its 2016, February 26, 1998 was almost 20 years ago. There again, WTO rules on financial services make it crystal clear, they can do nothing of the kind. They can only deregulate, not re-regulate.

           

          This is part of what I mean (Effective date of the following- February 26, 1998):


          Participants in the Uruguay Round have been enabled to take on specific commitments with respect to financial services under the General Agreement on Trade in Services (hereinafter referred to as the “Agreement”) on the basis of an alternative approach to that covered by the provisions of Part III of the Agreement.  It was agreed that this approach could be applied subject to the following understanding:

          (i)         it does not conflict with the provisions of the Agreement; 
           

          (ii)        it does not prejudice the right of any Member to schedule its specific commitments in accordance with the approach under Part III of the Agreement;

          (iii)       resulting specific commitments shall apply on a most-favoured-nation basis;

          (iv)       no presumption has been created as to the degree of liberalization to which a Member is committing itself under the Agreement.

          Interested Members, on the basis of negotiations, and subject to conditions and qualifications where specified, have inscribed in their schedule specific commitments conforming to the approach set out below.

          A.        <i style=”color: black;”>Standstill</i>

                      Any conditions, limitations and qualifications to the commitments noted below shall be limited to existing non-conforming measures. 

          B.        <i style=”color: black;”>Market Access</i>

          <i style=”color: black;”>Monopoly Rights</i>

          1.         In addition to Article VIII of the Agreement, the following shall apply:

          Each Member shall list in its schedule pertaining to financial services existing monopoly rights and shall endeavour to eliminate them or reduce their scope.  Notwithstanding subparagraph 1(b) of the Annex on Financial Services, this paragraph applies to the activities referred to in subparagraph 1(b)(iii) of the Annex.

                     <i style=”color: black;”>Financial Services purchased by Public  Entities</i>

          2.        Notwithstanding Article XIII of the Agreement, each Member shall ensure that financial service suppliers of any other Member established in its territory are accorded most-favoured-nation treatment and national treatment as regards the purchase or acquisition of financial services by public entities of the Member in its territory.


          end of quoted text

          This is just a PR move like Clinton’s promises, because Trump’s trial in the Trump University case is coming up.

          To get out of a GATS commitment we would need to follow the Article XXI procedure.

           

          WTO-GATS just forced India, the most populous country in the world, to give up their free education.

           

          See “Will the GATS close on higher education? – The Hindu”

          "Out of many, one"
          • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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            59. Buzz off if you can't talk without giving orders to people.

            • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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              68. I was trying to explain this horrible situation – not give orders- If it sounded

              that way I am sorry.

              I am at your service to try to explain this ugly FTA situation as best as I can.

              The 1995 services deal impacts virtually all government anything down to the local level.

              “The concept of measures affecting trade in services is broader than it might appear at
              first glance. According to Article XXVII(a), a measure could take virtually any form,
              including that of law, regulation, rule, procedure, decision, or administrative action.
              Second, the notion of affecting trade indicates a particularly broad scope of application;
              “affecting” is wider in reach than, for example, ‘‘regulating’’  or  ‘‘governing’’  trade  in services.”

              Its important to understand this because otherwise it will never make sense HOW or WHY they are literally waging a war on public education and all other public services globally.

               

              "Out of many, one"
              • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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                70. Thank you for being conciliatory. You said:

                “Get your heads out of these websites and do some research.”

                but I’ve done lots of research, and there’s nothing you’ve said that’s surprised me much.

                Just your seeming assumption rubbed me the wrong way.  Apologies.  I probably read into it, as I’m always seeing others do.

      • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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        15. they could reduce my interest rates to zero; I still can't pay them off

        the healthcare career I trained for, which the federal government projected 14% annual growth and the state university claimed 100% employment, continues to shrink dramatically due to combined forces of increased automation and hospital and lab consolidation.

        The bottom line for me, and many like me who fell for the “go back to school and retrain” lie, is that the work wasn’t there when we graduated and we’re too old to get hired for anything buy Walmart greeter or other part-time minimum wage job.

        • trudyco (1337 posts)
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          24. Can I ask what the job was?

          One of my children wants to go into healthcare thinking it’s safer than most. A CNA takes one month of training and $1300 but there are jobs right away full time at $12.50 to $13.00 starting. My child is thinking of becoming a doctor, or Nurse Practitioner( which now they are saying you will need a PhD to become).

          • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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            41. pharmacy corp rep. but they don't have a program for that.

            doctor/NP may not be the sure thing it used to be post-WW2.  Thanks to trade agreements.

            Nothing to stop them from opening up the US to foreign competition there, too, except complaints from the population.

             

          • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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            46. medical lab technician

            what one classmate and I figured out in year 2 (the clinical courses) is that demand is dropping like a rock because of increased automation of the remaining manual tests, increasing numbers of new, beside or rapid tests (card tests with a drop of blood or urine, such as rapid strep or pregnancy tests or a handheld mini-analyzer), increasing “buyouts” of hospital labs by “lab chains” that downsize them, centralize the “higher level” work and leave behind only the most routine work.

            Have him or her start as a phlebotomist (may be called “lab assistant”) :

            • little training needed to get started (depending on where you are, it may even be ‘on the job’ training)
            • it’s low pay; high demand. every hospital I know of has openings for them
            • it gets a foot in the healthcare door
            • s/he’ll get a feel for the hospital culture
            • if s/he can’t do phlebotomy, forget healthcare because nurses, doctors, lab techs, lab assistants and everything in between *require* it. And a fair number of people can’t do it, or can’t do it well or are extremely uncomfortable doing it. It’s a make or break for a number of reasons.

            Also keep in mind that however difficult the schooling is, the work environment will be more difficult.

            In school, they may present night shift as a desirable option. The reality is that 13-14 hour night shifts will be a requirement and the only way out will be to get hired to a day opening somewhere else.

            The stress is unimaginable. Forget how it looks on teevee…if you accidentally kill somebody, no matter the circumstances, your career is toast. Back when I was in school, a top notch nurse in the Presque Isle area accidentally killed 2 people when in a middle of the night mva emergency, she mixed up the blood for their transfusions. By chance, the next day she was heading out on vacation to Haiti with Doctors w/Out Borders. Word got to her in Haiti; she never bothered to come back from “vacation.” Left behind everything not in her suitcase, and just stayed with MSF.

          • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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            60. Don't, its about to get globalized.. i.e.Other nations will get rights to sell

            sell temporary staffing services soon.

             

            We desperately needed Sanders to win. The economics don’t work for the country otherwise – even just under the commitments which they have already made.

            "Out of many, one"
        • Kermitt Gribble (14 posts)
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          48. Sorry about your situation, Magical Thyme

          I did the “go back to school and retrain” thing, too. I have a higher income now, but the amount I pay per month for student loans negates the increase in pay.

      • trudyco (1337 posts)
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        26. Yes it's three prong isn't it?

        The cost of education should come down and have a cap on increases.

        The amount of loans should be more inline with a car loan in interest rates.

        The repayment should be more forgiving like this is, and should include some way to go bankrupt. 12% of wages will be easier if there is a minimum wage hike. Or even better, guaranteed minimum income just for breathing and being over 18.

        Probably Pharma and engineering/science/auto industry/oil/agribusiness  – anybody that uses university research to make money should have a modest tax to help support the research. This should be used to reduce tuition.

        • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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          42. It's like they held a knife to your throat and now you're debating about whether

          it should be sharpened or not.

          Middle-class kids used to be able to get through school without taking ANY loans at all.

          And we’re a much richer country than we were then, despite the poor-mouthing of the PTB.  A much richer country.

          Only one thing’s changed: the ptb are taking a MUCH larger piece of the pie.

          • trudyco (1337 posts)
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            49. They used to have decent paying jobs when they got out, too.

            • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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              55. yes. now they take out loans for crap jobs or no jobs.

              and a lot of them are paying outrageous tuition to phony for-profit schools, too.

              every time I hear one of those stories I think “crap!  why wasn’t someone there to give them advice”

              I think a lot of kids who didn’t grow up with friends or family who went to university get suckered into those phony schools because the schools make it easy and unintimidating for them.

              “sure, just get a student loan, we’ll help you, and you’re in and on your way to a great future!! no placement tests!!”

        • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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          47. 12% of wages is the *cap.* That's as high as it goes.

          Before I lost my job, I paid enough to keep the interest down, just a tiny percent of my income. Now on social security, I pay zero.

        • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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          61. They can only deregulate, so whatever they do it has to be by letting corporatio

          ns do whatever they want and by the government getting out of the equation. If Trump makes a promise thats not thats he’s lying.Also, he cant do anything that reduces their profits or make any change by not doing something they did before that reduces foreign investors profits. Its because capital is highly mobile and so they are making all these agreements that tie governments hands forever making them largely symbolic. With such a large increase in non-immigration (people will have to train their replacements which will be hard on them emotionally) they also likely will have to cut back on immigration.

          This is a related story. India is tired of our dragging our feet.. so they are going to the boss to get them to make us do it.

          India circulates concept paper on TFS initiative

          India’s TFS initiative meets US roadblocks

          South-North showdown on Mode 4 in Services trade

          "Out of many, one"
          • liberal at heart (1088 posts)
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            80. +1. Trump is all about deregulation. I don't trust a single word that

            comes out of his mouth when it comes to helping the middle class or the poor.

    • Rubicon (571 posts)
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      14. It is a good plan and it will help many.

      There are other issues that need to be addressed like the soaring cost of tuition even at public colleges.

      If Trump is successful with this and his Obamacare revision/repeal or whatever, the Dems are screwed.  They moved so far to the right that they might as well just stay there.  Trump will out liberal them and they have no one to blame but themselves.

      • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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        16. agreed. it means nothing changes for me, which is far better than if some

        extremist rw nutcase came along and turned the program off period.

        Nobody had addressed the students already in the income-based repayment program, other than Stein who wanted to forgive all student loans and write it off (which frankly would be the sanest and most humane response).

        I still plan to get my house sold asap, downsize to a more affordable situation and pay the loans off, all in one fell swoop.

        And for younger people, it means the debt servitude they were tricked into ends that much sooner, with much smaller loans forgiven, and therefore lower taxes on the forgiven loans.

        Funny, eh? The rw is screaming their heads off about it because it’s much closer to fair to the students than Obama’s program. The lw is now screaming because it’s not Stein’s program.

         

      • Akallabeth (2234 posts)
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        63. Trumps solution for everything is privatization, thats whats required..

        also, it has to encourage foreign trade.. it cannot be trade restrictive like its been up until now.. People will compete to bring the best possible services for the lowest price. Right now services cost several times in the US what they do in India. For the same skill workers. plus many workers in the US are older and many are not willing to work 60 80 or more hours a week.

         

        "Out of many, one"
    • JimLane (1146 posts)
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      27. No, he didn't "just" lay it out.

      The article is from a few weeks before the election, when he was in say-anything-to-get-votes mode.

      Trump has no record in public office and, even in his statements, an erratic record on issues.  Therefore, a key post-election question is how he will actually govern.  I immediately clicked on this thread on the assumption that it concerned a proposal made after the election, which would be important information on that score.

      In this context, the difference between mid-October and mid-November is huge.

    • peacecorps (3226 posts)
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      28. This was from a month ago while he was still pandering for votes. Let's see

      if he repeats this or something similar now that he doesn’t need students’ votes. I hope he does even if it goes nowhere near as far as Bernie’s proposal.

      • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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        30. aaah…just realized the article is dated Oct 13, not Nov 13.

        WaPo put it in my email this morning!

        Then you are right, it remains to be seen. However, this is the first I’ve seen anybody other than than Stein address the income-based student loan program.

        I’ll have to see if I can move it out of “late breaking news.”

      • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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        33. hopefully I just moved it from late breaking to education…

        checking now!

    • hippiechick (1351 posts)
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      29. Income Based is now capped at 10%

      Same if you happen to NGAF and let the IRS garnishers come after you. The max they can take is 10%.

      So 12.5% is actually an increase.

      :(

      • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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        31. A small increase in the cap coupled with a much quicker time to forgiveness.

        It gets former students out from under sooner, and before the loans become that much more prohibitive. The tax burden at forgiveness will be much smaller with forgiveness at 15 years versus 25.

        • hippiechick (1351 posts)
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          36. I've been paying for 15 years …

          … already paid $38k on a $32k loan. According to DOE I still owe $60,000 (interest, compounding, capitalizing etc). I’m essentially flushing almost $600/mo down the toilet and my balance NEVER GOES DOWN … so now I’m going to be paying 12% instead of 10% and have 15 more years to pay ON A DEBT I DON’T REALLY OWE to get ‘forgiveness’?

          No thanks. They really need to deconstruct the entire program and look at what people’s original loan amounts were, tack on a REASONABLE interest/fees % and call it a day.

           

          • Magical Thyme (2855 posts)
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            37. I think if you've been paying for 15 years, under his plan your balance is

            forgiven immediately.

            I don’t believe the clock starts anew on repayment. If it did, that would be a horrible, certain lifelong for almost everybody, penalty.

            • hippiechick (1351 posts)
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              45. We can hope …

              :hi:

      • FanBoy (7985 posts)
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        56. i'm confused. you're talking about percent of the borrowers income?

        like when you start paying off the loan, the most they can take is 10% of your income (not 10% interest?)?

        what do you mean “income based”?