Two cheers for voting for the lesser of two evils

Homepage | Forums | Main Forums | General Discussion | Two cheers for voting for the lesser of two evils

Viewing 23 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #325531
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,780

      So, why did Bernie, AOC and other progressives endorse Biden?

      Because they understand two things
      1. How elections work in a first past the post system
      2. That most voters are not policy junkies.

      If you want a third party, don’t bother unless you are committed to establishing first local, and then national voter databases. For the most part, third parties just can’t be bothered. There are notable exceptions–for instance Socialist Alternative in Seattle managed to elect Kshama Sawant in a citywide election in 2015, and then in a district election in 2019. Her campaigns have had upwards of 400+ volunteers committed to doorbelling and phonebanking. This is what actual winning takes, and if you aren’t prepared to do it, just forget about electoral politics and stick to boycotts and demonstrations. People like Sawant can have a real effect. On Tuesday she used her city hall key to let demonstrators into city hall.

      In general elections first past the post means that you always get a choice of two people. Considering your political goals, the only question is “under which of them will you best be able to get progressive legislation enacted?” In the case of the presidential election, I’d argue that that candidate would be Biden. In 2008, many were deluded into thinking that Obama was progressive. This year I don’t think anyone has that delusion about Biden. Most progressives understand that we will have to fight him on a lot of issues, and no one is deluded about hope and change. But if you think there is no difference between Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor and the likes of Brett Kavanaugh, you are delusional.

      In reality, we would be electing Jill Biden as acting president, given the ongoing progression of Joe’s dementia. She would be the third acting female president after Nancy Reagan and Edith Wilson. Note that during the last two years of Reagan’s second tern, he was almost totally non-functional. Unlike with Obama, we all know what we will be up against.

      First past the post is why Sanders ran as a Democrat instead of as an independent. The virus meant that he became instantly unable to go on with his usual campaign mode based on large rallies and a huge volunteer base. It is for that reason that he bowed out. Without being able to campaign that way, he really had no chance.

      Bottom line: if anyone is really serious about a third party, what are you doing about voter databases? Note that there has never been a successful nationwide third party in the US, with the possible exception of the Republican party. Even then, the Whigs that they replaced hadn’t even bothered to run a presidential candidate in 1856, and the result of Republican success and the disintegration of the Whigs left behind only two parties.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #325546
      Hobbit709
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,809

      means you are still choosing evil. Every time you let a little evil in, more evil finds it easier the next time.

      I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

    • #325547
      incognito
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,868

      We don’t have elections, so one can’t really vote for a ‘lesser of two evils.'”

      TPTB APPOINT WHOM THEY WANT to be the candidate.

      Voting is an exercise in futility. I will never vote again.

    • #325551
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 14,723

      It will eventually give us something far worse than Trump. Oh, that’s impossible, is it? That’s what I heard about George W. Bush and even Mitt Romney.

      It’s a good point about starting at the local level, and I think we’re going to see more of that with the defunding the police movement. The thing is, articles like this assume that we live in a functioning representative democracy, and we don’t. The entire electoral process has been corrupted and has already failed most people. That’s why so few Americans vote–there’s usually no one to vote for.

      That situation is quite deliberate.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #325559
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,110

      Electing more Vichy Dems will not further progressive goals any more than electing Republicans will.  Political goals are just the poisonous faked shiny wrapping paper the Democratic Party wraps around its Vichy Dems.

      And people voting Green are already quite fucking aware that the Greens cannot win – that is not the fucking point.  Voting Green is, at this point, just not personally enabling either evil.  It is kind of amusing reading endless verbiage at how the Greens Can’t Win, as if anybody here thought they could – the attempt to put people in mindless cheerleader mode, as if winning was the only thing we cared about, is getting really tedious.  ISSUES.

      All the crap floating around the internet about ‘lesser evil” is, IMO, merely the work of Piece of Shit Car Salesmen.  The DNC has a shitload of those.

      I am most certainly not going to base my vote on whether or not there is a voter database.   And the Democratic Party “winning” (given that the ENTIRE process is corrupt) is not a win for me any more than the GOP winning.  Pelosi is still handling things in her Third Way neocon neoliberal austerity-loving way, and THAT is the Democratic Party – all the rest is just fund-raising and influence peddling.  All the “Bernie says” bullshit is pathetic.

      • #325571
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 14,723

        When I vote for someone and they get elected, I feel that I am partially responsible for what that politician does after he or she is in office. I own it, just a little bit. I cannot in good conscience vote for someone who I know in advance will do bad things. I didn’t know Obama was going to do what he did when I voted for him in 2008–I got conned–but I did not vote for him as the lesser evil in 2012. I voted Socialist.

        I know Biden is a warmonger. I know Biden is no further to the left than Ronald Reagan at best. I know Biden will veto M4A. I know Biden will do little, if anything for the working classes or do anything to materially improve the lives of my stepchildren. Therefore, I won’t vote for him any more than I will vote for Trump. It’s really that simple. @djean111

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

        • #325713
          Maedhros
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 667

          Lucy SURELY won’t pull the football away THIS TIME, Charlie Brown.

          His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
          but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
          and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
          more deadly than his right had been.

    • #325560
      rudycantfail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 220
    • #325599
      A Simple Game
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 793

      that it’s getting increasingly harder to figure out which is the lesser evil.  I thought that the Democrats found the bottom of the barrel back in 2016 but 2020 has proven me wrong, they dug a little deeper and found Biden.  And why can’t we at least have a smart Presidents anymore?  Nixon was evil but he was smarter than these two put together.  In a three way race, it’s sad to say I would have to pick Nixon.  I don’t think Nixon would have pushed the big red button just because he was having a bad day or didn’t like what someone said about him or just didn’t know any better.  As for the Supreme Court?  I still blame Clarence Thomas on Biden.  So there goes that argument at least as far as Biden is concerned.

      • #325601
        Satan
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 3,217

        "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". - John F. Kennedy

        • #325607
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 14,723

          @satan

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

      • #325638
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 8,882

        agreed, but i don’t think nixon was ‘progressive-lite’ as he was because of who he was.  It was the times, the forces ranged with him & against him, that made him act as he did then.

        Should be come back from the grave today, he wouldn’t be 1972 dick, he’d be trump-lite-dick — but yeah, smarter.  and more dangerous.

        the times make the man.  or woman.

    • #325613
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,698

      If you vote at all, it’s always for a lesser evil.

      It’s political not theological.

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

      • #325616
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 14,723

        I don’t believe what you are saying. Most are, but definitely not all. When it comes to Democrats v. Republicans, though, you’re premise is correct at least 99% of the time anymore.

        It’s a good reason not to vote at all. I will not be voting for President this year unless someone gets on the ballot with whom I mostly agree. Right now, they aren’t there.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

        • #325643
          bazukhov
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 2,698

          It’s about governing.   I’m not voting for Biden because of his virtues, or ignoring his faults, I’m voting for him because he has a chance of beating the totally incompetent and loathsome creature now in charge.

          As for “not evil” candidates.  Everybody is human and is capable of both “good” and “evil”.   I guess we could vote for the the More Gooder candidates but both good and evil is subjective unless you figure there is a deity that decides the difference.

          The presidency is a job.   IMO a job that only crazy people seek.   I’ll take a competent surgeon over a virtuous surgeon any time.   I held my nose and voted for Jimmy Carter thinking he was just another bible-thumping southern pol.   It turned out that he became the most decent president of my life.  I held my nose and voted for Bill Clinton hoping that he would be like Carter.  He didn’t thump the bible but he certainly wasn’t like Jimmy.

          Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.  John Quincy Adams

          He was one of the best presidents this country ever had in that he did the least harm.

          In this instance my very subjective opinion is that it would be unprincipled for me not to try to remove Trump from office.

          Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

          • #326842
            Ohio Barbarian
            Moderator
            • Total Posts: 14,723

            @bazukhov To each his own. My principles, or at least priorities, are different from yours. If this country is going to do nothing for my stepkids, to the point that they don’t want to have any children of their own due to the bleak future they quite reasonably see coming from their own present, it can burn.

            It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

            Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #325618
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 774

      Must be a slow news day.    Frankly if I had a gun to my head and had to vote for one or the other I would have no choice but Trump

      Trump has gotten very little done other then be in the press. What he hasn’t done is start new wars, what he has actually done is started to remove troops from several countries.   He as shown the other countries of the world very clearly that the US of A is a corrupt sick country, that abuses it’s own citizens by funding war, torture, and coups , over health care infrastructure, and Education. It is a country that will rape and pillage every corner of the earth regardless of the health of the planet.  Trump has once again shown the world how racist we are, he is the parody that opens the curtain, then of course the Nancy’s and Schumer’s walk right through it. Anyone who kids themselves into thinking the dems on any level are the lessor evil is choosing to keep the curtain shut. The oligarchs are in charge . They will play the game in a way that keeps people from revolting with the Dems it is lessor of evil with the Rs it is second amendment.  Maybe it is time to sit down together and get rid of the oligarch.

      Earthartist

      • #325621
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 4,110

        I will be pleasantly surprised if you don’t get a stray “Oh, so you love Trump!!!!” glob of slime lobbed at you.  Because that is part of the Game.  I have Noted That.

      • #325623
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 14,723

        @earthartist There are also perfectly rational and legitimate arguments for voting for Biden over Trump, but none of them sway me. The no new wars under Trump, thanks more to the military than to his other advisers, is a powerful one for me. Democrats should count themselves lucky if I just don’t vote in Ohio this November, which appears to be what will happen right now.

        And if anyone calls you a Trump supporter because you won’t vote for Biden, feel free to report it as a personal attack or somebody acting like a hateful asshole. Vote-shaming should not be tolerated on JPR.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

      • #325645
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 8,882

        “Trump has gotten very little done”

        au contraire, he’s gotten quite a bit done, just hasn’t gotten the big coverage that his gaucherie has.

        https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/2/20970521/trump-administration-achievements

        • #325655
          Earthartist
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 774

          I stand corrected on the judges, the tax breaks were bi partisan and a large chunk of the environmental garbage is in the courts. The thing is all of this is also bi partisan did you hear the Ds say anything?  Remember when the Rs shut down obamas court appointments? The democrats are very much complicit when their silence  On all the above.   I think my feeling about what he has done on the environment goes with a lot of other thoughts on our government and Trump. His blatant disregard for science, climate catastrophe is so clear that the world is beginning to see the total rape and pillage of the rest of the word.  The Democrats did the same shit or gave us token BS that had little to no effect and was easily removed. These clowns are on the same team.. Remember barry and XL.  When he finally caved. He didn’t tell you that he made sure a bunch on other pipelines got through!  Or the months in Dakota he stood silently by while people were shot frozen with water cannons on native land! On the environment, the biggest contributor to the climate catastrophe is the Pentagon do you see anyone in DC doing Jack?

          Earthartist

          • #325726
            Cold Mountain Trail
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 8,882

            “The thing is all of this is also bi partisan”

            To some extent, but some he’s done by EO, the Rs have a Senate majority even with the Is included, T has the veto, & McConnell controls what bills move in the Senate I believe.

            Some is bi-partisan (like the tax cuts I believe), some isn’t.

            And I do hear Ds say something.  What I don’t hear so much is concerted effort in the Senate to hold the line, filibuster, or in effect strike.

            PS: as I understand it (& I could be wrong) Trump’s troop draw-downs aren’t so big & more or less draw down what he added earlier in his presidency.  So I don’t give him much credit for those.

            • #325965
              Earthartist
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 774

              No I agree he doesn’t get much credit but my point was given the gun I think I would vote for him over Biden.  The pentagon is the cause of so much death around the world and at home and massive environmental damage( although  trump could care less about that), and this is the one place that trump is better then biden. Not saying much

              Earthartist

      • #325714
        Maedhros
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 667

        At least with Trump in the White House America is showing its true face to the world.

        His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
        but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
        and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
        more deadly than his right had been.

    • #325624
      gordyfl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 877

      If for example, the two major candidates supported the War in Vietnam and you did not, would it be wrong to vote for the independent candidate who opposed the war?

    • #325633
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 774

      Hopping people understand I have no intention of voting for either party I hope the gun to the head made that clear but maybe not.  I will no longer vote for anyone who as spent more then 2 terms in DC. It only takes that for them to be absorbed into the borg

      Earthartist

    • #325642
      doh1304
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,209

      “The virus prevented Bernie from campaigning” Bull! On super Tuesday the democratic party declared martial law.

      Biden is the more likely to promote progressive legislation. This is idiocy! Trump is a con man, he will do whatever he thinks is best for himself. He has no principles. Convince him he will be seen as “the greatest president” and he will support universal scones with blueberry jam. Biden is a lifelong corrupt racist warmonger.  Trying to convince him to give up the credit card companies or the prison industry or the MIC and embrace civil rights is as ridiculous as asking him to give up breathing.

      • #325657
        Earthartist
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 774

        What are they going to say when he guts social security like he has wanted to forever!   Where  could anyone think he would ever support progressive legislation?  Wow  amazing

         

        Earthartist

    • #325650
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,351

      And serious question, do you feel even just a bit ashamed of coming here and scolding people into voting for Biden?

      Biden certainly gave us all permission to vote for Trump, vote for someone other than him, in NUMEROUS public appearances over the last year.  If Joe Biden is okay with voters voting for Trump or someone else, what gives you the right to argue he is wrong?

      Nothing personal, I like you, but these arguments are stale and – coming from other sources – misleading (to use a kind word).

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #325679
      chknltl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,043

      Starving is a bad choice too but of the three choices, starving is all I really have…

      …UNLESS I go out and find something better.

      Neither poop nor crap can further my immediate needs.

      Starving is also a bad option.

      Are my metaphors a tad too visual? Is my analagy unrealistic?

      No and no.

      We are the ones who set the table to begin with.

      History is history.

      Moving forward:

      If we choose poop, crap, starvation or find something else, well that is on us now isn’t it.

      (just stating the obvious as I see it).

    • #325681
      xyzse
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,515

      I’m still voting.  That’s what is important to me.  I don’t care who you vote for, be it Biden, Trump or someone else.  I personally will vote for 3rd Party or Write-in.  I still think not voting is letting yourself be completely ignored.  Which is why I advocate voting 3rd Party, just so that they know that there is a growing block of voters not willing to toe that Party-line.

      Either way, AOC or Bernie can not tell me who to vote for.  None of them can shame me on who to vote for.  Politicians MUST try to get my vote.  I DO NOT owe them my vote, and I am sorry, but I DID NOT FAIL BERNIE.  He effing gave up, and didn’t push as hard as he should have.  I understand why, but fact of the matter is, he should not have slammed or gotten rid of those who did the attacks for him.  The ones that pushed hard against the establishment.

      That he dropped Zephyr, Tulsi(to the point that she gave up early and her campaign betrayed by Bernie who did not even back her up on being called a Russian asset), etc., just shows how weak his push was this time.  He was too scared to be painted like Nader.  Again, I can understand but it is disappointing.

      I’m not voting Joe, and honestly, I think it would be FAR worse, for Joe to come in and pacify the masses, thinking that they’ve won and are doing a good job since a Democrat is supposedly in charge.  They would be doing the same thing as Trump, but the media will not show the atrocities they do.  So I would rather easily see all the crap that is going on, rather than the hidden shit that others have done(like Obama), and I’m still just figuring out.  (heck, I am still finding out other crazy things that has happened during Bill’s tenure).

      • #326030
        rudycantfail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 220

        That’s exactly where I’m at.

      • #326436
        eridani
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 5,780

        I was certainly shocked by Obama’s attack on Social Security.  I am expecting something similar from Biden.  But social Security Works chapters are all ready to go after him when he makes a move in that direction.

        The fact remains that as long as you have first past the post elections, there can only be two candidates in general elections.  Don’t know why anyone thinks that more of Trump will make it easier to fight for social change.

        Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #325683
      salemcourt
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,507

      @eartharttist I am definitely not voting for the less of two evils – Trump.  It is difficult to pick even one area that I am interested in where Biden is the lesser of the two evils – trade, war, M4A, police reform, corruption………………………

    • #325710
      Maedhros
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 667

      In EVERY ELECTION SINCE 1992 the Democrats have cried wolf, insisting that this election is the most critical election in U.S. history because the Republican opponent is such an unmitigated monster that we have no choice but to select the horrible Democrat.

      Every.Single.Time.

      Over.And.Over.

      They do this specifically to avoid actually promoting policies that help ordinary Americans and to continue to suckle at the teat of corporate donors.

      If Democrats want my vote, they will work hard to earn it.  Not by taking the easy way out with half-measures or by pointing  at the right-wing bogey man.  They’ve given us a Hobbes’ choice every election cycle since 1992 and it resulted in the shit show we have now.  Why would I believe any fool that tells me that this time is different?

      Voting for the lesser of two evils is a sucker’s move.

      His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
      but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
      and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
      more deadly than his right had been.

    • #325718
      RufusTFirefly
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,329

      This election is geared toward corrupting any remaining idealistic voters by forcing them to make a choice they don’t want to make because the alternative is worse.

      Once you concede, you lose your moral compass. You’ve been compromised and become part of the problem. Yet you quickly construct an elaborate edifice built from every cognitive bias in the book in order to reassure yourself and the people around you that you haven’t changed and your aim is still true.

      This is basically what happens to most idealistic politicians when they get chewed up and spit out by the Washington machine.

      Not everyone who shows up in Washington is corrupt, but all but a precious few wind up that way.

      • #326351
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 14,723

        @rufustfirefly

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #325824
      JonLP
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,153

      Trump is the worst President & Biden is the worst Democrat the party has offered me.

    • #326083
      Jim Lane
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 451

      @earthartist writes that “the tax breaks were bi partisan….”


      @coldmountaintrail
      agrees: “Some is bi-partisan (like the tax cuts I believe)….”

      I’ve largely given up on trying to correct people who insist on painting the Democratic Party as the root of all evil, but this one has provoked me. Here are the facts:

      * The tax cut bill passed in the Senate without a single Democratic vote in support (link).
      * The tax cut bill passed in the House without a single Democratic vote in support (link and link because for some reason there were two votes).

      It was a huge giveaway to the rich, it was one of the worst public policy actions in years, and it was totally 100% a GOP production.

      • #326086
        Hobbit709
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,809

        but they certainly are complicit in a fair amount of it.

        Look at Biden’s record as proof.

        I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

      • #326096
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 4,110

        Tax cuts are only a tiny part of why many of us will not be voting for whoever the Democrat is.  But lots of us are pissed off, too, just about different things.  We expect that to happen on a political board!

        Also I really do suspect that most Democrats in Congress are okay with the tax cuts, but happy they can campaign against them.  As a matter of fact, I suspect most Democrats’ votes now are just calculated for re-election and donor purposes, and Pelosi can arrange the votes/bills getting to the floor so that some can appear progressive without actually threatening the big donors with the loss of a single penny.  That is her job.

        • #326209
          Jim Lane
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 451

          @djean111

          The sad part is the extent to which we’re encountering differing facts.

          This tax cut thing is an example.  I was about 99% sure that it was basically a Republican bill.  I thought it was entirely a Republican bill, but I wasn’t completely sure.  Some conservaDem like Manchin or Lipinski might have voted for it.  But it was the work of a moment to find the exact roll calls and confirm that the vote wasn’t bipartisan even in the sense of having the support of one lone Democrat.

          As for cheering up, what cheers me up is the knowledge that JPR is definitely a cross-section from the small end of the log.  If you went by JPR, you’d think that the popular vote in 2016 would be close between Stein (Green Party) and Sanders (write-in).  Back in the real world, the overwhelming majority of Bernie’s supporters voted for the Democratic nominee in the general.  The same will happen this year.

          • #326226
            djean111
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 4,110

            Actually, if that log is the Democratic Party, then I am not on it at all.  And if Bernie’s supporters are mostly going to vote for Biden anyway, I wonder why the “Bernie says”, “lesser evil” and “oooh!  Biden will be progressive”  “the Democratic Party WILL CHANGE!!!!  REALLY!!!!”   bullshit is still being shoveled.  I really do.  And no one here thinks the Greens will win, not at all – just don’t want to vote for either evil.  Simple as that.  Should not be a problem, since Biden can count on all those Bernie votes, right?

            So why bother denigrating the Green’s chances, as if we all have the same goal?  We do not.  It honestly cracks me up every time that pops up, because no one is saying the Greens will win or even make a dent.  That’s quite a cute little straw man, really.

            I do wonder why there is an effort to push the vote for the blue thing here – may be luckier in that over at Freeperland or Conservative Cave, really.  haha!

            Anyway, I know the Dems did not vote for the tax bill, I know the Dems knew it did not matter how they voted for the tax bill, because it was gonna pass anyway.   I don’t believe a Vichy Dem will roll it back, that’s all, and the Vichy Dems have all been pretty fucking clear about opposing Bernie’s proposals, so I wonder why anyone is bothering to pretend they did not, do not, and will not continue opposing them.    This is all just for votes, which I am assured they don’t need, so makes no sense.

            Why would I vote for someone who says they will veto M4A, who has always wanted to cut Social Security, and has never met a war – or a warmonger – that he did not totally and warmly embrace?  That’s just a cross-section of the small end of a very big log of nasty stuff Biden has done and  intends to do. Just his cabinet candidate list is revolting.  Larry Summers?  Jamie Dimon?  Are you kidding me? Makes no sense to expect me to vote for that.

            • #326437
              eridani
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 5,780

              This is not true of all minor parties.  Socialist Alternative takes elections seriously.  I helped them set up their voter database in 2013 to get Kshama Sawant elected for the first time.  Because they take elections seriously, they understand that you need a lot of volunteers (400+) to use registration databases effectively.  They know that they aren’t ready to go national, and have focused on regional elections.  They have never run anyone for president.  They supported Nader in 1996 through 2008, Stein in 2012 and Sanders in 2016 and 2020, but were not active in any national campaigns.  Building successful organizations locally looks to me like the most productive way of eventually getting to the point of having national impact.

              Are you working on anyone’s local campaign?  If not, your opinions on electoral politics aren’t worth much.

              Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

              • #326457
                djean111
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 4,110

                Are you saying only those who work on a campaign have any worthy opinions?  Then the voters in that database have no worth either, I suppose, and should just vote for the candidate with the best database, and never mind the issues.  Anyway, those who want Ventura to run are starting on an infrastructure, at least the Greens have ballot access, and I believe enthusiasm will attract people to work on databases and voter outreach.   Maybe you could volunteer to help with a database!  And, you know, we know the Greens only have a one in a million shot of winning, but it sure beats voting for a Vichy Dem or Trump, and is better than not voting at all.  At this point, if there were only three people on the ballot, Dem, GOP, and “The rent is too damn high” guy, the rent guy would have my vote.  IMO we don’t have time to delusionally and stupidly wait and hope the Democratic Party will stop being a corporate tool.

                Oh, and at this point, my family would vote for Ventura, (they were not going to vote at all, since Bernie is not running) and I don’t think this is OFFICIAL voter outreach, but I have asked cashiers when I grocery shop about voting for Jesse Ventura, and they all have lit up and said is he running?  I will vote for him!  Ventura has the advantage of being known already, and for being a straight shooter.  I don’t agree with everything he stands for, but then I don’t agree with ANYTHING the Vichy Dems and Trump stand for.  So easy choice, not being a cult member or a purist.

                • #326941
                  eridani
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 5,780

                  Not saying everyone has to doorbell or phonebank, or even donate.  Participation can be an occasional phonecall or letter to anyone who has an effect on public policy.    The database for SA is Seattle only, and I don’t have the time or the expertise to expand it to King County, or even to Washington state.  Dems have Votebuilder, and maintaining requires substantial amounts or human work hours and money.  The problem with parties other than D/R (with the exception of SA) is that they DON’T GIVE A FLYING FUCK ABOUT VOTER CONTACT, period.

                  Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

              • #326672
                closeupready
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 1,351

                Kind of mad and sad at that remark.  Not sure what bothers me more – the intellectual laziness in dismissing – in advance – the opinions of probably 200+ million Americans, or the idea that I’ve made a mistake in thinking of you as being egalitarian/someone who hears out everyone contributing in good faith.


                @eridani
                @djean111

                The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

                • #326942
                  eridani
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 5,780

                  If you aren’t, your opinion is not likely to be as well informed as the opinions of those who do.  For all possible Ventura supporters–are you going to invest time and effort in getting him elected, or not?

                  Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

                  • #327113
                    sadoldgirl
                    Participant
                    • Total Posts: 814

                    @eridani:

                    I think that your statement about other people’s

                    knowledge is revoltingly arrogant. All everyone

                    needs to know is that we have a corporate warmongering

                    Uniparty, which dances to the tune of the plutocrats. The

                    so called differences are used to divide us; thus divide and

                    conquer. Anyone, who wants to vote for this can do so, but

                    should be aware that their vote may not count or be switched

                    anyway. I may write in Ventura, but expect that my vote may

                    be counted as little as it did for Stein in 16. However, I think

                    that participation in general will drop sharply this year, and

                    not just due to the virus.

                     

                    • #327208
                      eridani
                      Participant
                      • Total Posts: 5,780

                      That means taking voter contact seriously if the subject is electoral politics.  If the whole process disgusts you, then stick with boycotts and demonstrations,.

                      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

                      • #327241
                        djean111
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 4,110

                        are you saying that we should all vote for Biden or The Blue because the Democrats have a swell voter contact database?  Are you saying that people who do not directly work on a candidate’s campaign should just vote as they are told to by those who DO work on campaigns, that they have no business choosing who to vote for themselves?  That is to say – the Official DNC Party Line?  Issues are no longer important?  Again, Official Democratic Party Line.

                        Oh, and no one said they think voter contact is revolting, that is a straw man.  They said your attitude towards those who are not directly working on a campaign, or working on a campaign with “NO VOTER DATABASE” is revolting.  For instance, I have a lot of fun talking up Jesse Ventura to neighbors and folks who work in stores that I interact with.  Positive reactions, some people literally light up!  Probably more attention is paid to me talking about Ventura then would be paid to a phone call, methinks.  So it’s all good!  And good to think I may be voting FOR someone, not just taking the knee to a party that is pretty much completely disconnected from the people.  And thinks of me with contempt.

                      • #327825
                        eridani
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 5,780

                        A serious campaign knows where the registered voters are, and also which addresses have to be contacted to get people there to register.  Kshama Sawant has gotten elected to the Seattle city council three times with a 400+ volunteer database.  if you aren’t operating on that level, you aren’t serious.

                        Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

                      • #327850
                        djean111
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 4,110

                        Knowing that The Blue sneers at our concerns and wants and needs?  Yay for what you accomplished in California, but that is a drop in the corruption bucket.  Electing a Vichy Dem for president will, IMO, cancel out much of the good that progressives in the Democratic Party try to do.  The party is actually pretty open and clear about that.  So, aside from mentioning your role in outreach for Sawant, we are all very informed on that subject now, who is it that you are proposing people vote for?

                        Votes – given the corruption of the Democrats and the GOP, I sincerely doubt votes are tallied correctly, or perhaps they  not tallied at all, or are conjured up out of thin air, California-style, or dumped in closets and car trunks, Wassermann-style, or the totals are changed electronically before our eyes, or the coin-flip was rigged – so there’s that.

                        Anyway, yes, the issues with voter databases and such are important, but what are you proposing we do?  Vote for a Vichy Dem because they are serious?  Yes, they are deadly serious.  So no, no matter how hard people worked for them.  Deadly serious in the intent to hurt those very people.

                      • #328103
                        eridani
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 5,780

                        Much better for average people’s lives than Kavanaugh and Gorsuch, right?  Or do you disagree?  The thing about Vichy Dems is that there are perfectly useful strategies for fighting them while at the same time building  a more progressive alternative based on contact with non-policy wonk voters.  You know, those folks who wouldn’t be caught dead on JPR, or even SV.

                        I was unprepared for Obama’s attack on Social Security, but after ten years, organizations like Social Security Works know exactly what to do.

                        Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

          • #326358
            JonLP
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 2,153

            It is larger than either DU or this site and there are a lot more people not voting for Biden.

             

            I think Biden will probably win if the election where held today but both candidates seem to be doing everything they can to not win this election.

          • #326482
            ravensong
            Participant
            • Total Posts: 2,140

            who has the best chance of beating Trump in 2020, than who held their noses and voted against him in 2016.

            Among the reasons for this are the fact that Clinton was a very unpopular candidate, and Trump is infinitely worse in every way than any other US POTUS in history, maybe worse than all the rest of them combined,  Trump has disgusted and alienated every reasonable person on the planet, and even a few Republicans as well.

            Biden, at this time, is the candidate who has the best chance of beating Trump in November. If he is still breathing, and at least semi-c0herent in November, he will win the election.

            Because he’s not Trump, and simply not being Trump is reason enough for the large majority of voters to vote for Biden, to get out and vote simply in order to end the global nightmare of Trump’s tenure of corruption, dishonor, epic failure, oppression, cruelty, and destruction.

            That’s the only reason they need to vote for Biden.

            Trump is a hateful, vile fascist.

            Transgender Health Protections Reversed By Trump Administration

            The Trump administration on Friday finalized a rule that would remove nondiscrimination protections for LGBTQ people when it comes to health care and health insurance.
            …………
            Under the new rule, a transgender person could, for example, be refused care for a checkup at a doctor’s office, said Lindsey Dawson, associate director of HIV policy at the Kaiser Family Foundation. Other possible scenarios include a transgender man being denied treatment for ovarian cancer, or a hysterectomy not being covered by an insurer — or costing more when the procedure is related to someone’s gender transition.

            The Trump rule makes changes to gender-based discrimination protections beyond Section 1557 of the ACA; it affects regulations pertaining to access to health insurance, for example, including cost-sharing, health plan marketing and benefits. The rule could also mean that those seeking an abortion could be denied care if performing the procedure violates the provider’s moral or religious beliefs.

            https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/06/12/868073068/transgender-health-protections-reversed-by-trump-administration

            “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

            The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
            ~ Unknown

            • #326664
              Jim Lane
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 451

              @ravensong

              Of course, if they do run a candidate like Ventura who has some independent name recognition, that will change.  Assuming it’s Hawkins succeeding Stein, however, then neither of them has much of a personal following.  Each is basically “generic Green Party candidate”.  (Hawkins sought the nomination in 2016.  If he had won it, he would have gotten almost exactly the same votes Stein got.)

              This year, that generic Green Party vote will drop, just as it did between 2000 and 2004.  All it takes is four years of a Republican President for large numbers of progressives to see the foolishness of the assertion that there’s no difference between the major parties.

            • #326722
              Ohio Barbarian
              Moderator
              • Total Posts: 14,723

              @ravensong That’s true. It’s also true about Joe Biden. His campaign has already said that Jamie Dimon is being considered for Secretary of the Treasury. @jimlane The head of JP Morgan as Treasury Secretary? Rahm Emmanuel as potential Chief of Staff?

              “I have no sympathy for (the younger generations).”–Joe Biden

              I’m not voting for anyone who has no sympathy for the situation my stepkids are in, and will do nothing to advance their material conditions. Neither will they. Don’t worry, the way things are going younger people won’t vote but enough Boomers will vote against Trump to put your favorite Fascist in the White House. You will partially own the consequences of a Biden Administration, not I and not people like @djean111 .

              It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

              Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

              • #326762
                ravensong
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 2,140

                @ohiobarbarian

                Trump has been POTUS for roughly 3 1/2 years, and has clearly proven himself to be a hateful, vile fascist on an hourly basis for those 3 1/2 years.

                Biden, not so much.

                Most voters know very little about Biden, and even many progressives who loathe him to the core of their being are not willing to risk a continuation of the all encompassing fascist horror that is Trump.  Trump is a known.  Relative to Trump, for most people, Biden is a variable.

                Most progressives, who are informed about Biden, totally get why some refuse to vote for Biden, and can respect that decision.

                Progressives who loathe Biden, but who may vote for him because they see Trump as a more immediate threat and clear and present danger, should be respected for their decision as well. Especially progressives who are members of one or more minorities that Trump and his fascist administration is actively oppressing and persecuting right at this very second.

                It’s a lot easier for financially secure, old or middle age straight white fellas, to give Trump a pass.  After all, they are the most privileged citizens under Trump fascism, and their position of privilege will become more secure, maybe permanent, if Trump gets another 4 years.

                If Trump made laws that allowed religious fanatics in the health care/health insurance industries to refuse treatment/coverage to old or middle aged straight white christian fellas, or cheered on cops who routinely murdered old or middle aged straight white christian fellas, or supported fascist government control of the bodies of old or middle aged straight white christian fellas, etc, then, I suspect, more old or middle aged straight white christian fellas would be more inclined to consider voting against Trump like the non-old or middle aged straight white christian fella citizens are inclined to consider due to clear present danger and immediate harm to themselves and/or loved ones.

                Relgious Wacko Medical Assistant to straight white dude at Covid 19 clinic:

                I’m sorry, Mr. Barbarian, but as lawfully decreed by our lord and savior Jeezus Trump, we refuse your health insurance, and refuse to treat you, because our religious beliefs allow us to refuse medical assistance to straight white fellas.  Bwahaahaa, too bad for you, straight white dude second class citizen! Go fuck yourself, in the name of Jeezus Trump!

                How’s that feel to ya, if you can empathize a bit?

                Hopefully, you feel my point, no pun intended.

                You have every right to try to discourage people from voting against four more years of Trump, and informed progressives understand why you despise New Democrats and the DNC to the point where you are willing to risk four more years of a proven and determined aggressive, anti-democracy, revolutionary dictatorship of the plutarch, environment killing, totally evil Trump presidency.

                For some, allowing Trump to continue to institutionalize his blatant anti-democratic, hateful, planet killng authoritarian fascist agenda of the plutocrats is not worth the risk, and some have more to lose than others.

                Some will theorize, and speculate, that Biden, (or any unnamed Democrat, should Biden withdraw), will be worse than Trump, based on what Trump has done during his tenure so far as POTUS.

                Maybe so.  Who knows?  Vote for whoever you want, or don’t vote, if that is what you wish to do.

                “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

                The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
                ~ Unknown

                • #326777
                  JonLP
                  Participant
                  • Total Posts: 2,153

                  My mom had to beat deadlines to file bankruptcy because of Biden. I remember long lines. This wasn’t a Trump policy.

                   

                  I still have PTSD from Iraq and a friend is still dead. Biden was wrong about the Iraq war every step of the way. Trump didn’t do that.

                  • #327044
                    Earthartist
                    Participant
                    • Total Posts: 774

                    Americans pretend we have not been at war with 3rd world countries for the past 50 years. Actually a lot longer then that.  They think somehow Democrats were not part of the slaughter of brown people around the world and here at home.  Well Biden in his racist crime bill doubled the # of people in prison. He insured the police were totally militarized. So ravensong how do you think all those black and brown families feel about their children being in prisoned and dead ? Thanks to the Democratic Party and Joe Biden, because that is who paid the price. The Democratic Party is a pro war pro police party it is no longer connected to we the people so why the hell should I support it?

                    Earthartist

                • #326851
                  Ohio Barbarian
                  Moderator
                  • Total Posts: 14,723

                  @ravensong You seem to imply that I am privileged.

                  It’s a lot easier for financially secure, old or middle age straight white fellas, to give Trump a pass.  After all, they are the most privileged citizens under Trump fascism, and their position of privilege will become more secure, maybe permanent, if Trump gets another 4 years.

                  You were the one who can move back and forth from different countries, so economically and financially you are far more privileged than me and mine. You have no children or stepchildren. Our priorities are going to be different.

                  I do not condemn anyone for voting for Biden over Trump. I’m not even going to condemn anyone for voting for Trump over Biden. I see them both as reprehensible, corrupt, racist and homophobic old white men, both far older than I, BTW.

                  My choice is not based on any hypocritical privilege. It is based on the economic and class reality I find myself in.

                  It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

                  Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

                  • #326893
                    Jim Lane
                    Participant
                    • Total Posts: 451

                    @ohiobarbarian writes: “Don’t worry, the way things are going younger people won’t vote but enough Boomers will vote against Trump to put your favorite Fascist in the White House. You will partially own the consequences of a Biden Administration, not I and not people like @djean111 .”


                    @ohiobarbarian
                    also writes: “I do not condemn anyone for voting for Biden over Trump.”

                    I must confess, OB, that the first quotation above registered with me as condemning my choice to vote for Biden over Trump.  Nothing about your post implies that I don’t have the right to vote as I please.  Obviously, however, you have the right to condemn my choice, and you appear to me to be exercising that right.

                    • #326963
                      Ohio Barbarian
                      Moderator
                      • Total Posts: 14,723

                      @jimlane It’s just that Joe Biden is a Fascist by definition. So is Barack Obama. They both believe in advancing corporate interests by means of the power of the government. That’s how they govern. That’s what they are. IMO, if you vote for Biden, you own that, at least to an extent. I don’t want to own that, therefore I won’t vote for him.

                      It’s not all that complicated.

                      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

                      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

                  • #327011
                    ravensong
                    Participant
                    • Total Posts: 2,140

                    countries is because at an early age I was fortunate enough to grow up in a rural area and learn independent living skills, learn that the American Dream is a Matrix like trap, rejected greed culture and most all that it entails, never enslaved myself or my family to debt, and lived my life precariously, on the fringes of this insane greed driven imperialist culture, using as few natural resources as I possibly could.  My kids are grown and are doing well, living on the fringe, as they were taught.  I have 5 healthy grandkids.

                    I got lucky, end of story.  It is true that I am blest, and wealthy beyond measure, though I have relatively few material things, and exist on, and have always existed on, sparse finances relative to the average American, although well to do compared to most folks in what are called Third World countries, where a US dollar goes a whole lot farther than it does in the US, if a person knows how to live simply.

                    I am disgusted with the Democratic party, most specifically with New Democrats and their ilk.  They are tools of plutocratic oligarchy.  If I decide to vote for Biden, my vote will solely be based on the fact that Trump and his supporters are a clear and present danger and immediate threat to everyone and everything on the planet, in so many ways, a condition that is proven by the facts of Trump’s 3 1/2 years in the White House.  Trump’s clear, deliberate acceleration toward his goal of an unchallengeable authoritarian fascist government must be disrupted.

                    I was pointing out white male privilege in US culture, not attacking you personally. My use of “Mr. Barbarian” was solely for purpose of evoking empathy from you, for all minorities who are primary victims of Trump’s blatant and focused identity politics fascism.

                    There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy. ~ Shakespeare, Hamlet

                    White Privilege

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

                    Peace. Love, Health, Happiness, and all blessings upon you and your family.

                    And everyone else too.

                     

                     

                     

                    “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

                    The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
                    ~ Unknown

                    • #327054
                      Earthartist
                      Participant
                      • Total Posts: 774

                      I call BS on on calling out Ohio, to call all white men to acknowledge minorities, and how Trupmp is destroying them. Honestly You need to read up on the GD crime bill that Biden is so proud of! You want to talk about the horrific effect of someone on minorities in this country, that doubled the number of blacks in prison. It militarized police in this country and meant death and destruction for black and brown people In america. His war votes meant this destruction included people of color around the world.  Your absolute hatred of Trump means you see nothing beyond that. Ohio and many others can and do see beyond that and choose not to play the lessor of evil game put forth by the racist D and R party.  They choose not to have the crimes on their hands in their names..  the fanatical hatred of Trump is just that. He is a loud mouth bully who is in service to the same masters as the plagerizing crime bill bully

                      Earthartist

                      • #327062
                        Ohio Barbarian
                        Moderator
                        • Total Posts: 14,723

                        @earthartist Since most of my coworkers, half of my neighbors, and half my stepkids’ friends are in fact African-American, and none of them think I am some privileged white man because they know me and my family, I’m not overly concerned with what someone who lives out in the boondocks with a black person seldom in their field of vision thinks of me.

                        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

                        Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

                      • #327081
                        Earthartist
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 774

                        But I would never have tagged you with it as my image with out knowing you is not that!    I see privilege  as a new word to demean people with,where really I feel like it is a word that people should use if at all is to acknowledge were they came from.  I know I had a very privileged back ground but my family over all has used that to help with various things. Environmental, social justice, homeless rebuilding New Orleans. Mostly are kids will not be as privileged as we were.  This issue keeps going round and round and really it is kind of funny because no minds are being changed. Sadly I think it may not help friendships at this point.

                        Earthartist

                      • #327109
                        ravensong
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 2,140

                        that Trump has done for the people of the US, the people of the world, and the environment, during his tenure as POTUS so far?

                        Why do you think Trump would make a better POTUS than Biden?

                        I’ve never said, nor written, a good word about Biden, ever.

                        “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

                        The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
                        ~ Unknown

                      • #327114
                        Earthartist
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 774

                        They are both equally vile in my book.  Only thing close at all in my book would be war Trump has not started one. Garbage mouth biden is not as bad as trump other than that they are the same.

                        Earthartist

                      • #327167
                        ravensong
                        Participant
                        • Total Posts: 2,140

                        Trump has done nothing good for the people of the US, the people of the planet, or the environment.

                        Everything he has done has had a negative impact.

                        Now, you may see Biden and Trump as equally bad.  But the overwhelming majority of members of minority groups don’t appear to see things that way.

                        All minority groups voted against Trump in overwhelming majorities in  2016.  African Americans, Hispanics, Native Americans, Asians, women, LGBT, Jews, Muslims, young people, etc

                        The only group that voted for Trump in a large majority in 2016 are older white heterosexual men.  Older white heterosexual women also voted for Trump in majority, but the majority, was smaller than the white male majority.

                        Why do you think this phenomenon exists?  Below are the demographics of the 2016 Presidential Election.  Clearly, the overwhelming majority of all minorities see Trump as a threat, at the very least as an inferior candidate.  Heterosexual white men, and to a lesser degree, heterosexual women, not so much.  Trump has totally pissed off every minority with his oppression, behavior, policies, and failures for the past 3 1/2 years, so expect the voting majorities of all minorities voting against Trump to increase in 2020.

                        Again, why does this voter divide between older white heterosexual people, and everyone else, exist?  Could it be that older heterosexual white folks do not feel as threatened by Trump as the majority of the rest of us do, for some reason?

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidential_election#Voter_demographics

                        “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

                        The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
                        ~ Unknown

            • #326775
              JonLP
              Participant
              • Total Posts: 2,153

              @ravensong

               

              At least with Hillary Clinton there is a milestone. Biden is Hillary 2.0.

              • #326834
                Satan
                Participant
                • Total Posts: 3,217

                In terms of policy, of course, they are equally horrible. But, as far as I know, Hillary still has most of her marbles in her head.

                As long as she was stricken with permanent laryngitis and we didn’t have to endure 4 years of speeches in that goddamned “dragon claws on a chalkboard” yelling voice of hers, she might actually be an actually “lesser evil” than the twin senile pussy-grabbers at the moment. Truly a “least worst” option, as opposed to a “best” option, by any sane definition of course.

                Now… how to intercept her disastrous cabinet picks would be another challenge altogether, of course.

                "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". - John F. Kennedy

      • #326210
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 8,882
    • #326125
      Earthartist
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 774

      That’s it Djean. All we have to do is look at how they vote on the pentagon budget. Everything we need as a society beside Medicare and S.S. Is in the discretionary budget. 2% for science 5% for healthcare and on and on,  and we wonder why we failed so badly on covid it ain’t just Trump. It is DC.

      Jim my anger at The democrats is well deserved they claim to stand for our values and they don’t. They occasionally throw us a bone, but even that is now so obvious, like their bill on police and then the cynical bending the knee stuff.  I can’t stand their behavior, and yes more so then the repukes at least the repukes are honest about screwing everyone and their brother.

      Earthartist

    • #326736
      peacecorps
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,052

      Most of us still chose to support him.

      We all vote for ‘evil’ politicians – unless we can vote for ourselves. The question is when, where and how we draw the line in determining that one politician or another is ‘too evil’ or ‘not perfect but good enough’.

      There are people on the right and left who are highly principled and consistently vote for the most ‘perfect’ candidate. However, there is some truth to the the expression “Liberals fall in love; conservatives fall line.” Trump was not particularly popular with conservatives in 2015. They will follow him to Hell now.

      They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

      National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

      • #326749
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 4,110

        “too evil” line.  It is like The Lady or the Tiger – to me, there is a tiger behind both the Democratic Party door and the GOP door.  So I choose neither door.  Let those who can stomach either one vote for them.  We all will get hurt no matter who wins, and IMO Biden will have an easier time hurting more cruelly.

        Those who offer what they think is an inescapable Hobson’s Choice are always surprised, IMO, when someone picks “nothing”.

        I cannot imagine how Biden is NOT on the other side of the “too evil” line – veto M4A, Jamie Dimon and Larry Fucking Summers on his cabinet list – that’s just two of the many reasons I cannot vote for him – I am not merely “not in love” – I am horrified and aghast.    And since I am constantly reminded that those who will not vote for the blue no matter who are a tiny band of outliers, I am mystified as to why vote for the blue is being shoveled out in the first place.

        • #326961
          Canoeist52
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 102

          I will no longer vote for a right-winger flying under a Democratic banner.
          Doing that is what brought us to this precipice.
          Lucy can sit all alone hugging her football getting soaked in her self-made muddy football field.

          ps…. looks like the deeyou Wall St. water-carriers followed us here. They must be very skeered,  to be pickin’-on this tiny pocket ‘o resistance.

          "There is nothing pragmatic about an incremental solution to a catastrophic problem." - Ron Placone

    • #327022
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,110

      Keep a truly shitty candidate who is truly shitty at campaigning because they are just plain truly shitty  in the shadows until the very last second.  I still cannot see Hillary graciously allowing anyone else to run.  And this way, not much campaign pandering is needed – Biden under wraps.  And Hillary would just run on “It’s MY turn”, “Trump!!!!”, “Russia!!!!” and “STFU you peasants”.  Just like last time.

      Really is not anyone the DNC can put on the ticket who would get my vote.  I certainly would not be maneuvered into thinking Hillary would be better than Biden – when I would not choose Hillary OR Biden.  That’s like that old trick for getting kids dressed or whatever – don’t let them choose, just give them two choices that YOU decided on, and the kid will feel they got to make a “choice”.

    • #327210
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,780

      What I have chosen to do is to help a local minority party put together the voter info they needed to elect a Socialist Alternative candidate to the Seattle City Council no less than three times.  Hopefully, victories like this can get consolidated at the state, and eventually national level.  Refusing to engage in the work of voter contact changes nothing,.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

Viewing 23 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.