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Home Topics in Depth Foreign Affairs Ukraine celebrates Nazi hero – country officially dead inside

  • CNW (2491 posts)
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    Ukraine celebrates Nazi hero – country officially dead inside

    Ukraine celebrates Nazi hero – country officially dead inside

    Kievans took to the streets on January 1st 2017, to celebrate Stepan Bandera’s birthday. On June 30, 1941 Bandera declared the formation of the Ukrainian State in Lviv. After the war, the Bandera group formed their Government in Exile, which was given quiet legitimacy by both the US and Canadian governments shortly after WW2. See declasified CIA documents by following this link: https://www.cia.gov/library/readingro

    During WW2, Babi Yar in Ukraine was the single most horrific act of the ‘holocaust’ at the time (with all due respect, I have holocaust in speech marks because it was not only those of Jewish origin who perished there) The atrocities at Babi Yar were left to the SS Nachtigall (codename for about 600 Ukrainians under Bandera’s command.) The reason was simple – the brutal work of the genocide at this level made even hardened German SS uncomfortable. This fact is even obscured in the Holocaust Encyclopedia at the United States Holocaust Museum: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article….

    During the period September 1941, the first massacre at Babi Yar killed over 30,000 Jewish Ukrainians. Over the next few years, victims of the Roma Ukrainians (Gypsies) numbered almost 200,000. The group often left out of factual history were Russians and Ukrainians, communists and other nationalists, with estimates ranging as high as 300,000. Please note that Wikipedia mentions the 30,000 Jewish deaths, which is a gross underestimation of the total dead at the hands of the Banderavites and their SS heroes, at Babi Yar.
    (In general, Wikipedia should be avoided when researhing history as it is highly policitised and tends to distrort the truth.)

    What differentiates Fascist Germany from the Bandera Nationalists in Ukraine is that Germany has taken responsibility for the atrocities they committed. Contrast this to Ukraine, where surviving members of the WW2 Galician SS, willing participants in genocide, still proudly display medals given to them by the German Third Reich.

    It’s fair to say that US intelligence certainly was aware of which couldron to stir, in order to create the most division amongst the Ukrainian population after the government coup of 2014. The blue/yellow “Svoboda” Ultra-Nationalist Party flags that can be seen in the video recieve their funding from you, the American taxpayer.

    ——————————————————————————–
    How Did It Really Go For John McCain in Ukraine?

    Published on Jan 2, 2017

    Veteran Senator John McCain visits the front line in Ukraine to deliver a heart warming speech to the US/NATO/EU/Canadian & Oligarch backed troops & their families.

    LaaDeeDaaVA, ThinkingANew, polly7 and 6 othersjwirr, Jan Boehmermann, azurnoir, Justice, Purveyor, broiles like this

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19 replies
  • Jan Boehmermann (2485 posts)
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    1. The first video was really depressing…..

    … but the second one with McCain made me LMAO!   

  • Manny Goldstein (1678 posts)
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    2. Interesting. Did you happen to see the other

    YouTube videos from your source for the first video (and as far as i can tell, your source for your main assertion), a woman named Vanessa S.?

    Probably half of her videos are about Putin, things like:

    • Putin shows class in face of Obama’s new sanctions 31.12.201
    • Putin knew Trump would win!
    • Putin: Russia stronger than any aggressor
    • Putin schools Wall Street Journal – “We didn’t start this”

    And then there’s the other half:

    • Russia: Obama was most evil President
    • Obama’s lost his marbles – Russia’s 2016 wrap up
    • Warzone to Americans – “pity about your President”
    • Russia warns: NATO are modern NAZIS – Minister Shoigu

    In other words, the entire channel is Russia All Good, US All Bad.

    And I don’t understand Ukranian (nor do most on JPR, I fear), so it’s not obvious as to what they’re doing.

    Can you please find a reasonable reference for your assertion, or appropriately identify the source for what it is? Russia All Good, US All Bad is really no better than US All Good, Russia All Bad.

    As well, I think it would be helpful to have a source for your claim that “Please note that Wikipedia mentions the 30,000 Jewish deaths, which is a gross underestimation of the total dead at the hands of the Banderavites and their SS heroes, at Babi Yar.” Not that even one death is excusable, but it’s pretty important that claims are supported by facts.

    • CNW (2491 posts)
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      4. Thanks Manny, I'll dig into it.

      Understand Ukrainian? I’m not sure sometimes that I understand English.

    • leveymg (1808 posts)
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      5. I think Manny attributed a message to the OP that he didn't make. Straw Man

      by Proxy.  Manny wrote:

      Can you please find a reasonable reference for your assertion, or appropriately identify the source for what it is? Russia All Good, US All Bad is really no better than US All Good, Russia All Bad.

      According to your interpretation, Manny, the source is someone else, a Vanessa S.:

      YouTube videos from your source for the first video (and as far as i can tell, your source for your main assertion), a woman named Vanessa S.?

      Probably half of her videos are about Putin, things like:

      [ . . .]

      In other words, the entire channel is Russia All Good, US All Bad.

      That’s also internally inconsistent.  “Half of her videos” does not equal “the entire channel.”

      P.S.:

      On the other hand, the OP makes a similar error, in attributing the celebration of a Nazi collaborator to the entire nation of Ukraine.  According to a report, the Kiev parade on January 1st was attended by a few hundred Far-Rightists.  https://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/nationalists-commemorate-stepan-banderas-birthday

      A few hundred activists from Ukrainian right-wing political parties marched with torches in Kyiv to commemorate the birthday of their hero Stepan Bandera. The controversial leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalist – Revolutionaries would have been 108 on Jan.1.

      Activists walked along Kyiv’s central Kreshchatyk Street, carrying party flags and the red and black flags of the Ukrainian Partisan Army, which fought during World War II against both the Soviets and the Nazis for Ukraine’s independence.

      Bandera was the symbolic leader of the Ukrainian Partisan Army throughout the war despite being imprisoned by the Nazi’s in 1941 after proclaiming Ukraine independent.

      Many people in the crowd carried the portraits of Bandera, who remains one of the greatest heroes and ideologists for right-wing and nationalistic movements in Ukraine.

       

      • Manny Goldstein (1678 posts)
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        6. Well, look at the post's subject

        Ukraine celebrates Nazi hero – country officially dead inside

        Seems like a message to me; not to you? A message like that should be backed by facts, just as a message claiming that Putin stole the election for Trump should be backed by facts.

        I wrote that half the posts are Putin infatuation. And the rest are “US sucks!”. That adds up to 100%. Maybe it’s only 90%, I won’t go searching through it because it wouldn’t really make a difference.

        • leveymg (1808 posts)
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          8. The title of the OP is also a logical fallacy. See the P.S. in my message above

          • Manny Goldstein (1678 posts)
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            10. So just to be clear…

            1. Do you acknowledge that my post is internally consistant?

            2. You believe that the OP’s prose is not in support of the headline?

    • MattSh (461 posts)
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      11. Oh god, rehashing 2014? Spare me…

      I lived through this so-called Ukrainian “revolution” in 2014, I read on average 30-40 articles a day, and got information from people who actually knew things instead of the MSM or State Department spokespersons.  I put together a blog that got 250,000 views in 15 months, I could look out my window and clearly see things happening that the US MSM claimed were not happening.  And now it’s all coming apart at the seams.  Why would that be?  Because it wasn’t a “revolution,” it was a coup, plain and simple where one set of oligarchs were replaced by others more friendly to US and EU objectives.

      And now we have apologists, who’ve done none of the above claiming that is couldn’t possibly have been like that.  And why would that be?  Is it because some still want to live in a fantasy world were what the US does is not evil, but just occasionally misguided?  Well, rub the cobwebs out of your eyes, splash some cold water on your face, and pull your head out of the alternate reality called mainstream media.  The MSM feeds you an alternative reality, one that doesn’t exist.  It’s fake and it sucks big time.  And US foreign policy sucks big time, which would lead me to believe the aforementioned Vanessa S. over those who want to continuously rehash minor details as if somehow by doing that that would change the overall big picture.

      It’s easy to cast doubt on all of the evil in the world when one’s time outside the USA is measured in days or weeks, instead of months or years, and when those days or weeks outside the country are at a resort that specifically caters to Americans who have no desire to mix or mingle or meet the locals, because they’re not worthy of their time or attention.

      And I don’t even consider myself an expert on the evil of US foreign policy.  For that, you’d need to talk to refugees, or those crippled or maimed by US wars of aggression.  But they’d likely say things like USA all bad, making them unworthy of one’s time and attention too.

      And as for Babi Yar?  Yeah, I’ve been there and know the history of the place.  The 30,000 figures understate the total killed in the first two days of the massacre.  (Oh my god, the Nazis killed Jews.  Who would have thunk)?  There is no controversy about this; this history has been known for decades now.  Why do some insist that others back up well established historical facts when a 2 minute google search would make less work and hassle for everybody?  In fact, you could have confirmed this in less time than it took you to ask someone else to back up that statement.

      Or like someone at that other site said.  Maybe you’re just to close to what’s going on to understand the big picture.  Well then, I guess only those in ivory towers can understand the big picture then.  My advice, if you really want to understand the world, is to climb down from your ivory tower and consider for a moment that those who take issue with what the USA does might have a very good reason for doing so.

      The Tweetings Will Continue Until Morale Improves - Donald J. Trump ••   
    • ThinkingANew (1130 posts)
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      13. Manny. What you see as "one-sided" thinking is

      often actually posting directly that which is not being placed in other media and that which a person has an interest in researching and has an interest in period.

      I have explained here myself why I have tended to post more OPs about issues that involved Russia and that tend to point out inconsistencies in our press reports or express the viewpoint we don’t see. Unfortunately, for some reason people want to see others the way they are predisposed anyway.

      For me it is because of two things:

      1. I have a particular familiarity with what is happening and happened in Ukraine and Russia because of my own personal experience living there, my understanding and knowledge of events and parties well before recent events, and having family and friends in the places that are in the news.
      2. Why should I bother posting the perspectives that are already getting plenty of coverage? My time and energy are also limited. So I post that which I know better and am interested in researching and let others with other interests here inform me about other thing.

      Also when you have relatives directly effected by events you just pay more attention and tend to learn more (I am not Russian, born in the US, but I travel quite a bit).

      Is that really so hard to understand?

      With that in mind maybe you can reconsider that you have dismissed “Vanessa S.” for this reason “Russia All Good, US All Bad”? You might want to consider that people will not tend to spend their time posting that which already is well represented in the press. And instead, with this in mind, actually look at the merits of what is posted?

      "(modern) newspapers publish nothing more than “weaponized text"" “When you read a newspaper article, you are reading weaponized text that is designed to affect a person just like you." Julian Assange  
      • Manny Goldstein (1678 posts)
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        18. I fail to see how anyone could look at the "work" of "Vanessa S."

        and not conclude that it’s hilariously lopsided.

        • ThinkingANew (1130 posts)
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          19. :)

          I have not even checked out her videos. But that was not the point I was trying to get across.

           

           

          "(modern) newspapers publish nothing more than “weaponized text"" “When you read a newspaper article, you are reading weaponized text that is designed to affect a person just like you." Julian Assange  
    • CNW (2491 posts)
      Profile photo of CNW Donor

      17. More information, expanation of my source . . .

      Manny, I’m not as good  a poster as many others here at JPR, so I will make mistakes, when pointed out I will try to either explain  or edit or in a couple of cases – delete due to wrong or unsupported information. Constructive criticism leads to better posting.
      Also I’m not Russian or a foreigner, born in N.C., served in Armed Services during Vietnam – I’m American. I don’t like what our country is doing and it’s my duty to speak up. In the present situation, I think our country is going the wrong way.
      ———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————–
      * from your post …. *
      “YouTube videos from your source for the first video (and as far as i can tell, your source for your main assertion), a woman named Vanessa S.?”
      ====================================================================================================
      * Where I get sources and information depends on what I’m looking for. *
      * For sources concerning Putin or Russia, one channel I use is Inessa S. *

      * from her home channel: *
      Inessa S
      47,112 subscribers • 24,532,574 views

      Description

      Traditionally, a changing world order has been accompanied by either a large global conflict or a series of regional conflicts. Similarly, we are living through a time in which a unipolar world is reluctantly transforming into something new. One tool at the disposal of political elites is the manipulation of the media. This channel is geared at providing accurate translations of primary sources that are unlikely to air in Western mainstream media. This can hopefully counter incorrect perceptions of Russia’s foreign policy.

      I am not connected to the Kremlin, FSB, RT, Batman, Captain Planet, or other sources of influence. I have a laptop and access to the internet.

      Thanks for tuning in and if you relate to what I’m trying to do, join me on Patreon, a troll-free zone.
      Inessa S”
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeix8jbmQnS6FprsJIsjVyQ/about
      =============================================================================
      * As far as other sources for news I would use, of Russia and or Putin, these are a few: *

      Putin Has Been Good For Russia
      Filmed at the Royal Geographical Society
      http://www.intelligencesquared.com/ev

      Stop Poking the Bear: The West Should Engage With Putin Not Castigate Him
      Filmed at Cadogan Hall
      http://www.intelligencesquared.com/ev

      Putin trolls head of Russia’s national TV channel for prior links to the CIA-funded Radio Svoboda
      Russia Insider


      Putin warns America that ww3 is unavoidable NEW update!
      Global Economic News


      ‘US imposes new sanctions on Russia to distract attention from Syrian ceasefire’
      RT


      Is the ICDO colluding against Syria? White Helmets Exposed
      Fort Russ


      Syrian Citizens Expose the US Funded White Helmets
      Israeli News Live

      —————————————————————————-
      * The “Russia is Good  channel” video you mentioned, I don’t think they have a channel, they just happened to post that video. *
      ==========================================================================================
      * I’m not afraid to use a video channel or source just because I don’t care for the name,
      I’m looking at the message, regardless of the name of the messenger. If the source is biased, it’ll be obvious.
      Here on JPR you’ll find news posted from Huffington Post, NYT, Washington Post, etc. all certainly biased.
      In my view, just because they’re normally a propaganda outlet for the CIA or State Department doesn’t mean they
      always spout propaganda. Sometime they actually publish real news.
      By the same token, I suspect the Russian News from RT for example is biased, although I can’t prove it.*

      * In the case of the video I posted there are more sources: *
      Ukraine nationalists march in Kiev to honour Bandera
      http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30655184

      Who Was Stepan Bandera?
      https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/09/stepan-bandera-nationalist-euromaidan-right-sector/

      Why Are Jews So Afraid of Stepan Bandera?
      http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/165455/why-are-jews-so-afraid-of-stepan-bandera

      Nationalism and fascism in Ukraine: A historical overview
      https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/06/09/fasc-j09.html

      * It only takes a quick search to find confirmation or other sources if they are available. *

      ================================================================================
      From your post:
      “As well, I think it would be helpful to have a source for your claim that “Please note that Wikipedia mentions the 30,000 Jewish deaths, which is a gross underestimation of the total dead at the hands of the Banderavites and their SS heroes, at Babi Yar.” Not that even one death is excusable, but it’s pretty important that claims are supported by facts.”
      ================================================================================
      The “Final Solution”: Number of Jews Killed

      Country            Pre-Final Solution   Jewish Population Killed   Percent
      Jewish Population    in Final Solution                Killed
      ——————  ———————–    ———————-              ———
      Poland                    3,300,000              3,000,000                           90%
      Baltic Countries     253,000                     228,000                          90%
      Germany/Austria   240,000                     210,000                          88%
      Protectorate             90,000                       80,000                           89%
      Slovakia                  90,000                       75,000                           83%
      Greece                    70,000                        54,000                          77%
      The Netherlands   140,000                      105,000                          75%
      Hungary               650,000                      450,000                          70%
      White Russia        375,000                      245,000                          65%
      Ukraine*           1,500,000                      900,000                          60%
      Belgium                 65,000                        40,000                          60%
      Yugoslavia            43,000                        26,000                           60%
      Romania            600,000                      300,000                            50%
      Norway                 1,800                             900                            50%
      France               350,000                       90,000                             26%
      Bulgaria              64,000                       14,000                             22%
      Italy                    40,000                         8,000                             20%
      Luxembourg          5,000                       1,000                             20%
      Russia *             975,000                   107,000                             11%
      Denmark               8,000                     ——–                                —
      Finland                  2,000                     ——–                                —
      Total              8,861,8000                5,933,900                            7%

      https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/killedtable.html
      =============================================================================
      History of the Jews in Ukraine
      -snip-
      World War I aftermath
      During the 1917 Russian Revolution and the ensuing Russian Civil War, an estimated 70,000 to 250,000 Jewish civilians were killed in the atrocities throughout the former Russian Empire in this period. In the territories of modern Ukraine an estimated 31,071 during 1918–1920.[17]
      -snip-
      Only in Ukraine, the number of civilian Jews killed during the period was estimated to be between 35 and 50 thousand. Archives declassified after 1991 provide evidence of a higher number; in the period from 1918 to 1921, “according to incomplete data, at least 100,000 Jews were killed in Ukraine in the pogroms.”[32]
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ukraine

      ==============================================================================
      The secrets of Ukraine’s shameful ‘Holocaust of Bullets’ killing centre where 1.6million Jews were executed
      Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3205754/Blood-oozed-soil-grave-sites-pits-alive-secrets-Ukraine-s-shameful-Holocaust-Bullets-killing-centre-1-6million-Jews-executed.html#ixzz4VCUp8T33
      ==============================================================================
      Bandera, Ukraine & the Holocaust Part II: 1939-1943
      -snip-
      These men brought with them not just experience and weapons, but the stain of some of the most appalling excesses of the Holocaust in Ukraine – including the murder of 150,000 Jews at Volhynia and organising the two-day slaughter of 33,771 Jews at Babi Yar.

      https://www.historyanswers.co.uk/history-of-war/stepan-bandera-the-holocaust-1939-1943/
      ==============================================================================
      Are There Nazis in Ukraine? A Visit to Lviv
      -snip-
      On the other side of my family, my father, a Zionist activist in Kiev during the USSR period, recounted how many in his family were exterminated by the German Army and Ukrainian police in the famous Babi Yar massacre, near Kiev, in September 1941. In that occasion, 33,771 people were shot to death in one of the largest single massacres of World War II.
      -snip-
      At the same time, it is also incorrect to paint all Ukrainians as Nazi collaborators. The UPA had between 19,000 to 22,000 soldiers while millions of Ukrainians joined the Red Army
      http://www.truth-out.org/speakout/item/28392-are-there-nazis-in-ukraine-a-visit-to-lviv

  • leveymg (1808 posts)
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    3. There is a factual inaccuracy in the OP about the Wiki entry for Babi Yar.

    The numbers reported at the Wiki don’t add up to the 300,000 you cite, but other groups of victims including communists, Soviet POWs and Romas are mentioned.  You might want to amend the OP on that point.

    Babi Yar
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar

    For other uses, see Babi Yar (disambiguation).
    Babi Yar
    Babi Yar ravine in Kiev
    Also known as
    Babyn Yar, Babi Jar
    Location
    Kiev
    Date
    29–30 September 1941
    Incident type
    Genocide, mass murder
    Perpetrators
    Friedrich Jeckeln, Otto Rasch, Paul Blobel, Kurt Eberhard and others
    Organizations
    Einsatzgruppen, Ordnungspolizei, Sonderkommando 4a
    Camp
    Syrets concentration camp
    Victims
    33,771 Jews in initial two-day massacre {29 survived}
    100,000–150,000 Ukrainians, Jews, Romanis and Soviet prisoners of war on later dates
    Memorials
    On site and elsewhere
    Notes
    Possibly the largest two-day massacre during the Holocaust. Syrets concentration camp was also located in the area. Massacres occurred at Babi Yar from 29 September 1941 to 6 November 1943, when Kiev was liberated.
    Babi Yar (Ukrainian: Бабин Яр, Babyn Yar; Russian: Бабий Яр, Babiy Yar) is a ravine in the Ukrainian capital Kiev and a site of massacres carried out by German forces and local collaborators during their campaign against the Soviet Union.

    The most notorious and the best documented of these massacres took place 29–30 September 1941, wherein 33,771 Jews were killed. The decision to kill all the Jews in Kiev was made by the military governor, Major-General Kurt Eberhard, the Police Commander for Army Group South, SS-Obergruppenführer Friedrich Jeckeln, and the Einsatzgruppe C Commander Otto Rasch. It was carried out by Sonderkommando 4a soldiers, along with the aid of the SD and SS Police Battalions backed by the local police.[1] The massacre was the largest mass killing for which the Nazi regime and its collaborators were responsible during its campaign against the Soviet Union[2] and is considered to be “the largest single massacre in the history of the Holocaust” to that particular date,[3] surpassed only by Aktion Erntefest of November 1943 in occupied Poland with 42,000–43,000 victims and the 1941 Odessa massacre of more than 50,000 Jews in October 1941, committed by Romanian troops.[4]

    Victims of other massacres at the site included Soviet prisoners of war, communists, Ukrainian nationalists and Roma.[5][6][7] It is estimated that between 100,000 and 150,000 people were killed at Babi Yar during the German occupation.[8]

    • CNW (2491 posts)
      Profile photo of CNW Donor

      7. Thank You Leveymg, I'll study up & correct the figures.

      • leveymg (1808 posts)
        Profile photo of leveymg

        9. The error in fact was made by the person who added onto the original article

        https://syrianfreepress.wordpress.com/2017/01/03/january-2017-kiev-celebrates-the-nazi-hero-banderas-birthday-while-in-donbass-the-kids-send-letters-to-the-soldiers-in-the-frontline-which-are-fighting-the-banderas-soros-gangs/

        January 2017: Kiev celebrates the Nazi-hero Bandera’s birthday, while in Donbass the kids send letters to the soldiers in the frontline [which are fighting the Soros gangs with Bandera’s face]
        03 TuesdayJan 2017

        Posted by syrianpatriots in Donbass, George Soros, Kids, Kiev, Novorossiya, Novorussia, Pravy Sector, Right Sector, Stepan Bandera, Ukraine, Ukraine South Front

        VIDEO

        Kiev celebrates Nazi hero ~ Kievans took to the streets on January 1st 2017, to celebrate Stepan Bandera’s birthday. On June 30, 1941 Bandera declared the formation of the Ukrainian State in Lviv. After the war, the Bandera group formed their Government in Exile, which was given quiet legitimacy by both the US and Canadian governments shortly after WW2. See declasified CIA documents by following this link 

        In future, you might want to fact check before you repost.

        • CNW (2491 posts)
          Profile photo of CNW Donor

          15. leveymg, thank you for the link, the children's letters video was moving,

          it’s hard to imagine having to spend your holidays as they are. My knowledge of Ukraine is limited, but I am looking at the conflict that is happening. I first heard about it  in a video that interviewed Patrick Lancaster, an American from St. Louis in Donetsk just before the invasions of Crimea. I became more interested after that. He’s very involved in helping the people in Debaltsevo, Spartak and Donbass.

          Patrick Lancaster: American journalist in Donetskhttps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN3Q7Iq69UU
          He now has his own channel  //www.youtube.com/channel/UCbjTWVaRx6jMN5ZYgbqe2_w

          I haven’t corrected my posting here yet – been preoccupied with issues that are taking almost all my time at present.

           

          • leveymg (1808 posts)
            Profile photo of leveymg

            16. If I were a skeptic,

            I’d say that Patrick’s accent is more Ottawa or Twin Cities than St. Louis, or maybe it’s just that he’s started to assimilate.   All things considered, Donetsk looks surprisingly pretty and peaceful.  Nothing like the pictures I saw of the airport a couple years ago.  It’s all a bit like the Spanish Civil War.  Where you were at the time very much determined the lessons and politics you took away from it.  Very different perspectives if like Orwell you were in Catalonia than Hemingway in Madrid.

  • Ichingcarpenter (3395 posts)
    Profile photo of Ichingcarpenter

    12. Anytime I see McCain visit one these countries at war such as Iraq, Syria etc

    I think

    Some people just want to see the world burn

     

     

    I don’t think Mr. Senator Bomb, Bomb Iran and hanging with ISIS leaders is a good sign for who’s on the right side of things.

     

     

     

     

    • CNW (2491 posts)
      Profile photo of CNW Donor

      14. The picture also fits my opinion of McCain, this man needs to retire.

      Thanks for that, Ichingcarpenter,