US took steps to block Ukraine aid 90 minutes after Trump phone call

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    • #242338
      Charles
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      • Total Posts: 1,595

       

      Issued on: Modified: 

      A US budget official told the Pentagon to “hold off” on military aid to Kiev 90 minutes after a controversial phone call between President Donald Trump and his Ukrainian counterpart Volodymyr Zelensky, according to an internal email.

      ~Snip~

      “Based on guidance I have received and in light of the Administration’s plan to review assistance to Ukraine… please hold off on any additional DoD obligations of these funds,” Office of Management and Budget official Michael Duffy wrote in an email to Pentagon officials.

      The email is time-stamped 11:04 am — an hour and 31 minutes after Trump’s controversial July 25 phone call with Zelensky ended, according to a summary of the conversation released by the White House.

      “Given the sensitive nature of the request, I appreciate your keeping that information closely held to those who need to know,” Duffey added…

      Read more:

      https://www.france24.com/en/20191223-us-took-steps-to-block-ukraine-aid-90-minutes-after-trump-phone-call

       

       

       

       

      Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

    • #242346
      elias39
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      • Total Posts: 4,768
    • #242354
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 14,671

      Ayup. Trump ordered it, no question. He’s guilty, no question. He will not be removed from office, no question. This news will not change any significant number of voters’ minds, no question.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

      • #242361
        Charles
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,595

        @ohiobarbarian

        Well. At least it’s obvious he broke the law. Now all that’s to matter is whether people care about the law. In this day and age probably not.

        But as Bernie has said (paraphrasing) it’s sad that we must do this but no one, not even the president is above the law.

         

        Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

        • #242365
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 14,671

          @charles I agree with you, but most people don’t care about this because it doesn’t affect them. Presidents have been above the law since Ford pardoned Nixon. The principle that that should not be the case doesn’t matter much to someone living paycheck to paycheck.

          Some of us also see the flagrant hypocrisy of the Democrats who approved the latest NDAA that gave Trump billions more for war than he asked for. That just shows that they don’t believe Trump absolutely must be removed from office to save the Republic.

          They’ve completely botched this whole impeachment thing, man. They’re so corrupt, so afraid that their own crimes will be exposed, that they’ve presented the weakest case possible. It’s a damned shame, but there it is.

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

        • #242430
          The Red Menace
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 1,080

          Funny thing about breaking the law?

          Most people don’t actually give a fuck if someone breaks the law. Unless it clearly causes active harm, most people treat criminal activity with a shrug.

          No one gives a fuck if some working schmoe lies on his taxes (except the IRS, of course.) But they DO get mad at the rich fucker who gets tons and tons of completely legal tax breaks. Nobody gives a fuck if you watch pirated movies, but if you steal a DVD, then they care. No one cares if you mail your friend a couple buds; but if you’ve got an international heroin ring, they start to care, see?

          “The Law” isn’t important to most people. Thus “he broke the law!” is not a meaningful argument; it is literally a fallacious appeal to authority to most ears.

          What people DO care about…
          What law was broken? People understand that most laws are there just so there can be a law there. So that lawmakers, bureaucrats, and police can justify their own existence. I’m sorry officer, didn’t know how I wore my pants after 7 PM was a matter of such interest.
          In what manner the law was broken? If you contribute to the delinquency of a minor by letting your 17 year old cousin have a Budweiser, people won’t care so much. if you take your 17 year old cousin to Mexico to hire a prostitute for them, well now that’s another matter!
          To what scale the law was broken? The drug example above. if you mail a gummi edible to a friend, big deal. If you’re using UPS to ship hundreds of poundsof dank around the country… well first, HOW, but second, that’s quite an operation, might be time to shut it down .
          Who was harmed by the law being broken? People give next to no fucks about crimes that have no clear victim, for good or ill (this is why people still dump antifreeze into storm drains, ffs)
          And
          How egregious was the perpetrator? The surest way to make people suddenly start giving a fuck about a crime they never cared about before, is to flaunt how you’re getting away with a crime as if it were something to take for granted, rather than just casually, quietly exploiting a blind eye. it IS possible to bend this one though – an especially flamboyant criminal can actually become a sort of folk hero (again, largely dependent on what exactly he’s doing and how. Robin Hood? Sure. George Zimmerman? Not so much.)

          If your argument is “HE BROKE THE LAW!!!” then you’re not likely to convince anyone who isn’t already convinced. Especially in this case. Let’s walk it back a bit.

          Donald Trump is accused of threatening to withhold aid from the Ukranian government, in order to manipulate them into doing what he wanted them to do. Basically, some weird mix of blackmail and bribery. And he pretty certainly did do this.

          But the thing is… what is this “aid” in the first place? Ukraine is not an impoverished nation. Ukraine is not ravaged by a natural disaster. You can’t even really give it the label “war-torn,” despite the fighting in its east. This “aid” is not desperately-needed materiel for a people in dire straits… No, it is literally money that the United States has been handing to the Ukranian government in an effort to buy them away from Russia and closer to NATO.

          So. Basically? Donald Trump is being accused of bribery, by his threat to withhold bribes from Ukraine.

          Yes. he broke the law in doing this. But good luck finding anyone who actually gives a fuck about him breaking this law in particular. Even the Democrats don’t care – it just happens this is the only law he’s broken that they won’t self-incriminate on. Even then they don’t care enough to actually advance the process, and seem willing to settle for empty gesture.

    • #242377
      sadoldgirl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 814

      For heaven’s sake,

       

       

       

       

       

       

      For heaven’s sake, Trump did not ask for those moneys

      in 2018. Congress overruled him for their typical

      anti-Russian attitude. We need to fight Russia, no

      matter that is rational or not! Cripes, this is all based

      on emotional idiocy propagandized by the those

      institutions, which claim to protect us, while doing

      the opposite. Wake up!

       

       

       

      • #242386
        Charles
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,595

        @sadoldgirl

        One can separate Trump’s  actions from the foreign policy involved because there is a difference.

        Undoubtedly Bernie comprehends this and that’s why he still supports impeachment.

         

        Bernie: "Not Me. Us"

      • #242456
        peacecorps
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,047

        One can agree with a policy of not sending military aid to Ukraine. If Trump had made a principled decision to defy congress on sending the aid because that was the right thing to do, one could support that. That is not what he did.

        They are called 'human' rights not "if politicians do not feel threatened" rights. Many politicians see national sovereignty/security as more important because they protect their power and wealth. Human rights often do just the opposite.

        National issues (slavery/racism, income inequality, pandemics and pathetic health care, weak unions) are not solved with more states' rights. Global problems (climate change, migration, trade, war, pandemics) are not resolved with more national sovereignty.

    • #242447
      BirdSong
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 70

      Bill Clinton also broke the law while lying under oath about his sex life. Most Americans were smart enough to not give a shit. Many Americans find the Bidens’ corruption more disturbing in this case.

      Trump has done many things that he does deserve impeachment over, but this isn’t one of them. It’s obvious why the Democrats won’t touch his real crimes.

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