War and Regrets in Ukraine

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    • #495847
      Joe Shlabotnik
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,716
      Washington may regret its role in the war in Ukraine.

       

      … No one in the White House, the Senate, or the House consciously set out to turn the proxy Ukrainian war with Moscow into a contest of “competitive societal collapse” between Russia and NATO. But here we are. No one imagined that the Biden administration and the bipartisan war party would drive Americans and Europeans into a political, military, and economic valley of death, from which there is no easy escape. Yet that is precisely what is happening.

      For the moment, Washington remains blind to these developments. Whether in print, radio, television, or online, the narrative is clear: despite horrific losses—at least 400,000 Ukrainian battlefield casualties including 100,000 soldiers killed in action—Ukrainian forces are winning. Moreover, the narrative says, America’s financial and economic dominance will ultimately overwhelm the deceptively weak Russian economy.

      The Ukrainian-victory narrative admittedly benefits hugely from Western media that actively “tune out” opposing views and depict Russia and its armed forces in the worst possible light. The fact that nearly half a century of the Cold War conditioned Americans to think the worst of Russians certainly helps.

      Yet there is also a measure of “true faith” at work, a condition of national narcissism, inside the Beltway that believes Washington can control what happens thousands of miles away in Eastern Ukraine. The message resonates in Congress because it rests on a critical strategic assumption that American citizens have yet to challenge: that American national power is limitless and unconstrained—as though a series of strategic failures, from Vietnam to Afghanistan, never happened.

      More: https://www.theamericanconservative.com/war-and-regrets-in-ukraine/

       

      He’s generally right, but the 2019 Rand paper did envision economic subjugation of Europe.

      ~ All good things are Wild and Free ~

    • #495857
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,912

      At least, ordinary Ukrainians. If you can find one still in Ukraine – tens of millions are refugees inside or outside of Ukraine.

      And they’ll be much harder to ask with the electrical infrastructure being destroyed in Ukraine – there are now blackouts that may occur between 7 AM and 11 PM – at least, that’s today’s plan.

    • #495858
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,792

      Russians like Nureyev and Solzhenitsyn and Russians who dissented … these people were always lauded as heroes, and yes, it was important that they were Russian. The Hollywood hit Dr. Zhivago was about Tzarist era Russians. Russian composer Tschaikovsky’s Nutcracker has been the theme song to the super-capitalist Christmas season for as long back as I can remember.

      A good oped, just sometimes I get a little pedantic – Macgregor may believe that it is true, but it is not, and that point stuck out at me immediately. The idea that Russians were painted as boogeymen is nothing more than Clintonian historical revisionism.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

      • #495879
        retired liberal
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 5,107

        “The idea that Russians were painted as boogeymen is nothing more than Clintonian historical revisionism.”

        What about the Red Scare in the 1950’s? You know,  the one with the communist under every bed and around every corner? That was Russia, or the USSR back then.

        Clinton was working with the Russia to dismantle their aging nuclear arsenal. Within days of Bush the lesser was sworn in, that was quietly dropped and we went back to business as usual, with Russia being the main boogeyman. The MIC needs boogeymen to justify their existence. Never forget that.
        I wasn’t even a teenager yet and I was wondering what the big deal was. I even remember watching “I Lead 3 Lives” Didn’t really make any real sense then. Still doesn’t. It is the United States, with military bases all over the world, that keeps invading other countries and toppling governments that are a bit too far to the Left, or have a bit too much of a democratic government.
        No other country even comes close to the carnage we have caused to “Protect our Freedom” by interfering in the internal affairs of other countries since the 1950’s.

        Also why are we paying Russia to ferry or astronauts back and for to and from the International Space station?

        We are an arrogant species, believing our fantasy based "facts" are better than the other person's fake facts.
        If Row vs. Wade is overturned, women could lose the right to not get pregnant in 26 states.
        The Republicans are four year olds. The Democrats are six year olds. There are no grownups.
        Normalizing insanity has been the conservative's sweet spot at very least since the beginning..

        • #495885
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 25,301

          Americans have been indoctrinated to fear Russia off and on, mostly on, for almost 100 years. I admit I was surprised about how quickly it came back starting with the Russiagate lies created by Hillary Clinton in 2016.

          As for paying the Russians to ferry astronauts, they still make the best earth-to-space boosters and pretty reliable spacecraft in general. Not as many bells and whistles as American government contractors install, but reliable nonetheless. Far more reliable than say, SpaceEx.

          Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

          The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

    • #495877
      A Simple Game
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,411

      as though a series of strategic failures, from Vietnam to Afghanistan, never happened.

      Think about it… we have not won a fight since WWII and many, including me, think that Russia had more to do with winning the European part of that one than we did.  And no, Granada doesn’t count because the other side didn’t know they were in a fight.  But now we are poised to set a new low record by losing a war we aren’t even fighting in.  But as many here probably already know, we don’t get into fights to win anything, we get into fights to cause turmoil and profits for the MIC.

    • #495906
      Passionate Progressive
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,657

      (1874-1965)

      It’s not Manchester’s accounts and illumination-worship of the ‘patrician’ Churchill that I find so fascinating but it is the sweeping context within which Churchill lived which essentially was the rise (Queen Victoria) and fall of the British Empire. There was Victoria’s son Edward VII’s funeral, the Russian Revolution, the abdication of Edward VIII, two World Wars, the creation of the state of Israel, Indian (+) independence, etc., etc……all of which were individually exclusive, monumental and earth shattering events that culminated in the world we have today – to use the words of Blinken – the ‘rules based order’.

      One illuminating detail with regard to revisionist history – especially with Polish Government’s recent attempts to blame WWII on Stalin-Ribbentrop 1939 agreement…Given behaviors of British PM Chamberlain during the late 1930’s and initiatives not to alienate the Third Reich, etc. despite evidence to the contrary and Churchill’s warnings, it is easy to see why Stalin didn’t trust the British.

      But overall, it seems to me that the repeated US international blunders most recently in Ukraine  are evidences of its inability to see beyond its propaganda.  and portends what will be a forthcoming provocative shake-up analogous to, if not worse than what was experienced by the British Empire.

      The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.....Martin Luther King '63

      It takes all the technical proficiency our system can provide to make up for the woeful lack of popular support and political savvy of most of the regimes that the West has thus far sought to prop up.........Bernard Fall

    • #495908
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,081

      It just counts the money it made, ignores the people it killed and the lands it laid waste to, and enthusiastically rolls on to the next murderous adventure, spewing lies and propaganda all over the world.

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" Baelish

      VFTBNMW is, IMO, literally "take the blue pill".

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