Home Topics in Depth Progressive Parties Welcome to the Third Party Forum.

  • TM99 (4694 posts)
    Profile photo of TM99 Banned

    Welcome to the Third Party Forum.

    I am going to move the Green Party and socialist posts that are in the general forum area in here to better organize things.  Going forward please post all such threads, topics, and discussions here.

    Thanks!

    Peace13, PetiteLorelei, Haikugal and 30 otherssangfroid, Kenjie, Tuesday, Marylander, Babel 17, nc4bo, Polichick, a2liberal, 2bAnon, Hawkowl, PDiddie, CNW, Beebee, Marym625, Scuba, Betty Karlson, deepestblue, melurkyoulongtime, Wanet, DesertRat2015, Rozinante, TheNutcracker, Paulie, aspirant, daleanime, mindwalker, broiles, Downwinder, EmmaG, djean111 like this
    When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.

▼ Hide Reply Index
47 replies
  • 1 year ago #3
  • 1 year ago #16
  • 1 year ago #22
  • 1 year ago #27
    • starroute (212 posts)
      Profile photo of starroute Donor
      • TM99 (4694 posts)
        Profile photo of TM99 Banned

        2. I think those are fine right there.

        Our Activist forum is open for all left of center actions and activities.  I just want to move the obvious ones here in this main forum to the sub-forum.  Let’s get this one populated and active.  The Green Party is going to be a very important one this year. :)

        When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
        • starroute (212 posts)
          Profile photo of starroute Donor

          18. Okay, makes sense

          :-)

      • tokenlib (240 posts)
        Profile photo of tokenlib Donor

        11. The Poor Peoples Economic Human Rights Campaign is behind the March

        The Green Party and Jill are only endorsing it with a bunch of OTHER groups and individuals. There was a time when the Democratic Party as a whole ALSO cared about issues like the poor and vulnerable.  Instead it took the ACLU to threaten and shame the city into finally granting a permit for it.  Someone didn’t want the embarrassment during the convention.

        This isn’t just a “Green Party post”.  And there won’t be any bouncers ripping up Bernie signs at Jill’s rally. I’d guess there will be a lot of them there too, and they’ll be encouraged and welcome.

         

        • TM99 (4694 posts)
          Profile photo of TM99 Banned

          12. Yes, that is what I figured.

          Thanks for giving more details. :)

          When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
    • Cassiopeia (2394 posts)
      Profile photo of Cassiopeia Donor

      3. Third party!

      Phew, on first glance (and follow up click to rage) I thought I saw the third way forum.

      :evilgrin:

      The only minority we should actually fear is the wealthiest 1%
      • TM99 (4694 posts)
        Profile photo of TM99 Banned

        4. No fucking chance for that here!

        :roflmao:

        When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
      • Betty Karlson (3736 posts)
        Profile photo of Betty Karlson Donor

        13. Third Way is a dead end.

        And we don’t want to walk into a wall, let alone a Wall Street.

        "Someone hacks the DNC allowing all of America to see how the DNC operates as one of the most corrupt political machines in national history. Ergo, Hillary Clinton should be installed as President by judicial fiat. And if you do not agree to this scheme you deserve to be brought up on charges of treason because fascism." - NUGrrl, december 2016 “Once a person has been determined to be an UNTRUSTWORTHY LIAR, their pretend stances on important issues are simply not relevant to rational discussion.” – Ida Briggs, September 2016
    • MannyGoldstein (2286 posts)
      Profile photo of Manny Goldstein Admin

      5. Should it be "Third-Party Forum"?

      I could be mistaken.

      "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it" - Upton Sinclair
      • TM99 (4694 posts)
        Profile photo of TM99 Banned

        6. In business and law, it is indeed third-party.

        In politics, it is third party.  :)

        When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
        • MannyGoldstein (2286 posts)
          Profile photo of Manny Goldstein Admin

          7. But otherwise, couldn't it be understood that it's

          the third in a line of Party Forums?

          "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it" - Upton Sinclair
          • TM99 (4694 posts)
            Profile photo of TM99 Banned

            10. Well yes, that is true.

            ;)

            When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
          • Marym625 (25840 posts)
            Profile photo of Marym625 Admin

            15. so?

            Picky picky picky

            "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • JimLane (1321 posts)
      Profile photo of JimLane

      8. Will this be a "safe haven"?

      Many on JPR are enthusiastic about the Green Party.  I’m of the minority that considers Green or other third-party activism a colossal mistake.  Do you want this forum to encompass discussion of the pros and cons of that issue, or do you envision a safe haven for those who are committed to the third-party strategy and who want to share thoughts about tactics?  If the latter, then presumably the pro-and-con stuff would still go in General or in 2016 Elections.

      • TM99 (4694 posts)
        Profile photo of TM99 Banned

        9. This sub-forum is no more a 'safe haven'

        than All Things Bernie and Hillary Clinton and the Third Way.

        But if you go into All Things Bernie and start a lot of criticisms of him, you will get a lot of flack and push back.  Equally if you go into the Hillary Clinton forum where she is heavily criticized and start praising and extolling her virtues, you will get flack and push back.  Expect the same here if all you do is criticize and post negativity.

        If you think it is a colossal mistake, with no pros and only cons, then yes, the General or 2016 Elections root forum are probably a better place to post.

        When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
      • Betty Karlson (3736 posts)
        Profile photo of Betty Karlson Donor

        14. Can we convince you to see the merits of going third-party?

        Because we’d like to try and proselytise. We don’t need a safe haven as much as a chance to grow and foster support.

         

        Fair enough? Love,

         

        Betty

        "Someone hacks the DNC allowing all of America to see how the DNC operates as one of the most corrupt political machines in national history. Ergo, Hillary Clinton should be installed as President by judicial fiat. And if you do not agree to this scheme you deserve to be brought up on charges of treason because fascism." - NUGrrl, december 2016 “Once a person has been determined to be an UNTRUSTWORTHY LIAR, their pretend stances on important issues are simply not relevant to rational discussion.” – Ida Briggs, September 2016
        • JimLane (1321 posts)
          Profile photo of JimLane

          17. Sure, just not here.

          I don’t see the third-party approach as having “no pros and only cons” — few things in politics do — but I think the cons are clearly stronger.  Obviously, many JPRers disagree.  That’s an important conversation for progressives to have.  In light of TM99’s response (#9), though, your pro-third-party proselytizing on JPR should be in the General or 2016 Elections root forum rather than here.

           

          As you can see from my response, I agree with Manny about the hyphen, but I’ve given up proselytizing on that score.

          • EmmaG (903 posts)
            Profile photo of EmmaG Donor

            19. I think you need to re-read #9 –

            He just said it wasn’t a safe haven.  I can accept that.  But if you think you’re going to come in here and bad-mouth Stein up and down – well all I can say is expect push back.

            Of course the third party forum is going to be pro-third party.  It doesn’t make sense that we could only be pro third party in General or 2016 elections.  Smh.

            #DemExit #StillSanders #JusticeDems #GoGreen
            • JimLane (1321 posts)
              Profile photo of JimLane

              21. I think we're not that far apart.

              You write, “It doesn’t make sense that we could only be pro third party in General or 2016 elections.”  I completely agree.  People in this forum can obviously be pro third party.  My question was about being anti third party here, and it seems to be more appropriate that I make any such posts elsewhere.

          • TM99 (4694 posts)
            Profile photo of TM99 Banned

            24. Actually, no, you have misunderstood completely.

            Let me reiterate:

            1. All Things Bernie – For positive discussions & support for Sanders.
            2. Hillary Clinton & The Third Way – For critical discussions and the thwarting of HRC and the New Dems.
            3. Third Party – For positive discussions & support for all third parties and their candidates including Greens & Jill Stein.

            If you think the cons are ‘clearly stronger’, then that debate does not belong here in this sub-forum.  Please take it to the 2016 Elections root.

            I am sorry but you and Manny are incorrect.  From Wikipedia —

            The term third party is used in the United States for any and all political parties in the United States other than one of the two major parties (Republican Party and Democratic Party). The term can also refer to independent politicians not affiliated with any party at all and to write-in candidates.

            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_party_(United_States)

            Finally, it is inappropriate to suggest that positive support for third party candidates is ‘prostelytizing’.  In general we do not support any proselytizing.  Politics is not a team sport, nor a religion, and we don’t support ‘cults of personality’ even with regards to Bernie Sanders.  That kind of talk and bullshit can be found on plenty of other sites, but please not here at JPR.

            Thank you.

            When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
            • a2liberal (56 posts)
              Profile photo of a2liberal Donor

              28. So where is the right place

              for those progressives who honestly believe a vote for Hillary in the general is the correct choice for the long-term and want to post their thoughts on that?  (I’m not one of them, but I do believe they exist and that JPR ought to allow that discussion)

              • TM99 (4694 posts)
                Profile photo of TM99 Banned

                29. Bluntly,

                and I am sorry but it is not here.

                You can risk doing so but we clearly state and have done so since JPR’s founding that we do not support Hillary Clinton and the New Democrats.  You will get a lot of push-back and strong support like endorsements and cheer-leading can lead to suspensions or banning.  This is clearly stated in our Community Standards & Guidelines.

                I respect the freedom of choice that anyone has to vote for whomever they want to.  But Clinton and the DLC/Third Way/New Democrats are simply not left of center even if the have a “D” after their names.  Sanders’ revolution is in part about wrestling control of the Democratic Party back from their clutches.

                If you want to post your thoughts on Clinton being ‘the correct choice for the long-term’, there are plenty of sites out there that support her and will welcome that kind of discussion.  JPR is not one of them.

                When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
                • a2liberal (56 posts)
                  Profile photo of a2liberal Donor

                  30. *shrug*

                  ok.  Like I said, I’m not of that opinion but I think it’s a huge mistake for the site to have that policy.  Not my site though :)

                  oh and to clarify I definitely don’t mean thinking she’s the best candidate in the primary.  I mean thinking that if she does succeed in getting the nomination (which seems almost certain at this point), people who agree with Sanders’ stated view that electing her is the best of the choices for pushing the progressive platform ahead long-term — basically people who buy into the “a vote for a third party is a vote for Trump” and believe that electing Trump would kill the movement.

                  • TM99 (4694 posts)
                    Profile photo of TM99 Banned

                    31. Yes, there will be some.

                    They are welcome if they are not extremely vocal and pushy about it.

                    We have been clear from the get go as to who we are and what we do and don’t support.  :)

                    When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
              • bernintheusa (1252 posts)
                Profile photo of bernintheusa Donor

                46. JPR's very own @Satan will save them a place. Am I right, @Satan ? >:)

                imageWe all only live once. So we are obligated to make good use of the time that we have and to do something that is meaningful and satisfying. This is something that I find meaningful and satisfying... I enjoy helping people who are vulnerable. And I enjoy crushing bastards.                        - Julian Assange -                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          image                                                                                                     ... for Julian's safety ...   
            • JimLane (1321 posts)
              Profile photo of JimLane

              36. You don't seem to be contradicting what I wrote, except about hyphens.

              I wrote: “My question was about being anti third party here, and it seems to be more appropriate that I make any such posts elsewhere.” You’ve confirmed that by stating, “If you think the cons are ‘clearly stronger’, then that debate does not belong here in this sub-forum. Please take it to the 2016 Elections root.” Your subsequent elaboration in #29 indicates that, even in the 2016 Elections root, that debate will be constrained, but, to the extent it’s permitted anywhere on JPR, it will be there.

              You also write, “Finally, it is inappropriate to suggest that positive support for third party candidates is ‘prostelytizing’ [sic].” You’ve missed the context. I was responding to Betty Karlson who wrote in #14, “Can we convince you to see the merits of going third-party? Because we’d like to try and proselytise.” She and I don’t attach the same negative connotation to the word that you do, but that’s a minor matter. The more important point is that I was responding to that very post when I told her that her “pro-third-party proselytizing on JPR should be in the General or 2016 Elections root forum rather than here.” I can see how, taken out of context, it could be confusing, but I didn’t mean that no one in this forum could write in favor of third parties. I meant that, if Betty or anyone else wants to have the discussion with people who don’t currently agree — which is what I took her to mean about proselytizing — then those pro-third-party posts should be elsewhere, because if they were here I couldn’t respond to disagree and there couldn’t be a conversation.

              Finally, on the all-important matter of the hyphens, I as an active Wikipedian appreciate your citing Wikipedia. If you look a little further, though, you’ll see that it’s not as clear as you think. The example you give is obvious. We can write “The Green Party is a third party” and there’s no need for a hyphen. If, however, the statement is that “Jill Stein is a third-party (or third party) candidate,” then the phrase “third party” is what’s called a compound modifier (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compound_modifier for elaboration and some examples). The statement doesn’t mean in any sense that Stein is the third candidate. Instead, the hyphen is used to show that “third” modifies “party” rather than “candidate”.

              There’s an exception to this rule when a compound modifier would be unambiguous even without the hyphen (for example, “graduate student housing”). This leaves a gray area. For example, as a lawyer representing accident victims, I’m inconsistent, in that I sometimes write “personal-injury action” but other times omit the hyphen. One can argue that the phrase is so well known in legal circles that the hyphen is unnecessary.

              In political writing, “third party” is within that gray area. If you go back to the Wikipedia article you cited and scroll down to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_party_(United_States)#Scholarly_studies where some references are collected, you’ll see variation. Abramson et al. title their article “Third-Party and Independent Candidates in American Politics: Wallace, Anderson, and Perot,” but Koch goes with “Political Cynicism and Third Party Support in American Presidential Elections”.

              So reasonable people can differ and Manny is not incorrect. If you prefer to follow the Koch point of view, hey, that’s your choice. :)

              • TM99 (4694 posts)
                Profile photo of TM99 Banned

                37. Pedantry aside,

                Take any debates to the 2016 Elections root forum.  As long as they are coming from the left, have at it with respect and civility.

                We aren’t allowing any proselytizing for Clinton, Trump, or yes even Stein.  Again, any debates or discussion concerning pros and cons go in the 2016 Elections root forum.

                No, you are still incorrect.  In standard American English, the Green Party is a third party.  There is no hyphen.  It is not a compound modifier in its standard usage.  There are many third parties in the political arena.  It is not a ‘third-party’.  It is a third party which is not one of the the other two major parties.  In business & legal English, it is a compound modifier and is correctly written as third-party as it describes a singular entity or person who is tertiary to a main contract or organization.  Both are singular.  Cambridge dictionary agrees with me. ;)

                 

                When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
        • TM99 (4694 posts)
          Profile photo of TM99 Banned

          26. It is preferred if we don't 'proselytise'

          but rather passionate discuss the pros and benefits of a viable third party.

          But otherwise, yes, there does need to be here and elsewhere a chance to grow and foster support.

          :)

          When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
          • Betty Karlson (3736 posts)
            Profile photo of Betty Karlson Donor

            40. My apology. I'm glad you didn't take my choice of words too seriously.

            That was my religious upbringing making an inappropriate appearance.

             

            Indeed, my intention is to discuss such matters – and I take good note of your direction that such discussions are ideally had in the general discussion forum, not the Third Party forum. I do predict however, that the border between the general forum and this sub-forum will be fluid at times, and I respectfully ask the moderators to be flexible under such circumstances. There is too much inflexibility on the web already, and we don’t want to be as unwelcome an echo-chamber as some other site. What good would that do us?

             

            Discussion is a cornerstone of healthy democracy. Now that we are in recovery, we need more of the healthy stuff. That is, we need to passionately discuss the pros and benefit, the cons and disadvantages, the viability and the path to existance of a third big party. So pardon us if we occasionally sneeze in the wrong place. ;)

            "Someone hacks the DNC allowing all of America to see how the DNC operates as one of the most corrupt political machines in national history. Ergo, Hillary Clinton should be installed as President by judicial fiat. And if you do not agree to this scheme you deserve to be brought up on charges of treason because fascism." - NUGrrl, december 2016 “Once a person has been determined to be an UNTRUSTWORTHY LIAR, their pretend stances on important issues are simply not relevant to rational discussion.” – Ida Briggs, September 2016
            • TM99 (4694 posts)
              Profile photo of TM99 Banned

              41. I was not upset per se at your choice

              of words as it actually allows me to distinguish between two types of support.  One is allowed here per our guidelines and standards and the other pushes the boundaries so that it is not.

              Of course, there will be discussions that allow for flexibility and obvious threads that belong in this forum should go there.  We will be as flexible as we can be while still maintaining some order and structure.  As a site grows, especially as fast as we are, that is critical.  But gods no, none of us our going to be that rigid that an echo-chamber would be created anywhere on this site.

              Yes, I agree.  Open communication is extremely important.  And we still have to have boundaries and to define what is appropriate and what is inappropriate so that it the space is created for incredible civil and at times passionate discussions and debate.

              Work with us and self-monitor yourselves more, and then we moderators aren’t being tasked to do it for the community.  The more hands off we can be the better, and you will note that that is a prominent component of our standards & guidelines.  :)

              When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
    • EmmaG (903 posts)
      Profile photo of EmmaG Donor

      16. You rock, TM99 –

      Thank you so so so much!!!

      #DemExit #StillSanders #JusticeDems #GoGreen
    • CNW (2492 posts)
      Profile photo of CNW Donor

      20. Thanks TM99 – I think the timing is right.

    • Hawkowl (1355 posts)
      Profile photo of Hawkowl Donor

      22. Awesome!

      I love this place!  I haven’t had a home since being banished several years ago.

      "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” - Burke
    • 2bAnon (4160 posts)
      Profile photo of 2bAnon Donor

      23. Would this be the appropriate place to discuss forming a Progressive Independent

      party? or should that be discussed in a different forum?

       

      http://jackpineradicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/sergiolara2-1.mp3

       
       
      • TM99 (4694 posts)
        Profile photo of TM99 Banned

        25. This forum would absolutely be the place for that discussion

        as well as issues that cover un-affiliateds & independents as well as socialists.  Green activity is strong as I have moved a lot of threads from elsewhere but in general this is not a Green forum in particular.

        When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
        • 2bAnon (4160 posts)
          Profile photo of 2bAnon Donor

          32. good to know.

          I’m waiting until after the convention, to mull over “where” I’m going to affiliate myself. I campaigned for my local Mayor Green Party Mayor Trish Spencer, I take the opportunity to vote Green on several local elections. Not feeling the joy with Jill’s campaign at the moment.  Taking a glance at Gloria La Riva, the Peace and Freedom party Presidential Candidate.

           

           

           

          http://jackpineradicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/sergiolara2-1.mp3

           
           
          • TM99 (4694 posts)
            Profile photo of TM99 Banned

            33. I know many that are.

            I have voted Green quite a few times in the past.  I have my criticisms of Stein’s campaign for sure, but at least she is an actual female progressive leftist running for president. ;)

            I rarely am wait to wait to see what an outcome will be.  I am already planning for contingencies and finding other paths to follow.  My heart still wants Sanders to pull this out.  My head knows that it is getting unlikely for that outcome.  But who knows?  The only thing consistent in life is change and inconsistency!  :lol:

            Post some information on La Riva and the Peace & Freedom Party.  All of that is welcome here for discussion in this forum.

            When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
            • 2bAnon (4160 posts)
              Profile photo of 2bAnon Donor

              34. Thanks i will, but I'm looking around..

              Just as I was once registered Green (2000) I was also once or twice registered Peace and Freedom.   totally focused on Bernie, I didn’t explore or do deep research on anyone else.   But maybe it’s a good idea to post presidential candidatesnames, party affiliation and policy points just to expose various options for consideration.

              As for a Woman, I’d love to see Nina Turner make a run for a progressive independent party.  I think she’s got it going on.

              But such a party has yet to be created I think.   :shrug:

               

               

               

               

               

              http://jackpineradicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/sergiolara2-1.mp3

               
               
              • TM99 (4694 posts)
                Profile photo of TM99 Banned

                35. Oh, man, I would support Nina Turner

                in a fucking heart beat.  She has brains, courage, real progressive, etc.  Sadly I think she plans on staying with the New Democratic Party for now.   :-(

                Yes, that would be a fine idea.  It will also help us expose progressive leftists on the down-ticket races as well.  There aren’t Bernicrats in all of them and supporting Greens, Peace & Freedom, socialists, etc. against New Dems is very much called for at this time.

                When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
                • 2bAnon (4160 posts)
                  Profile photo of 2bAnon Donor

                  38. Do we actually know that for sure, though?

                  When i heard her the other night on a cable news show after Orlando, Third Party was actually discussed very briefly. her response signaled an open mind about it.   Wait. before you say it, I AGREE that’s a far cry from actual intentions.  Not saying that. But I’m thinking you know, she might be “draftable” ..   if wishes were fishes.   there’s no Progressive Independent party in existence that I’m aware of, and it’s too late to file for the General in California.   And the Greens have Jill.  so there’s that.

                  But I really, really dig Nina.

                   

                   

                  http://jackpineradicals.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/sergiolara2-1.mp3

                   
                   
                  • TM99 (4694 posts)
                    Profile photo of TM99 Banned

                    39. Probably not for sure.

                    But we should take this topic up in another thread so we don’t get to off the topic of this one.

                    I think it would be great to discuss her and others.

                    When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
                • daleanime (2409 posts)
                  Profile photo of daleanime

                  44. I agree that that is probably her plan….

                  but if Hillary does complete her purchase of the ‘d’emocratic party I’m sure most anyone who wasn’t completely behind her campaign will be made to want to leave.

                  When the going gets tough, the tough take care of each other
                  • TM99 (4694 posts)
                    Profile photo of TM99 Banned

                    45. I agree.

                    I know I would if I was in their shoes.  Some, like Dr. West, did so rather quickly.

                    When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
    • hifiguy (1662 posts)
      Profile photo of hifiguy Donor

      27. Thanks.

      The time has come.

    • davidgmills (5233 posts)
      Profile photo of davidgmills

      42. Probably about time Jill Stein gets her own forum like Bernie

      I imagine posts about him will begin to decline and she will likely be most progressives choice post convention

      French Revolution; not secession.
      • TM99 (4694 posts)
        Profile photo of TM99 Banned

        43. While likely, for now

        the team has decided to not yet endorse anyone still but Sanders.  As he did not suspend his campaign and the convention is not over, there could be a small chance of him being on the ticket in November.   You and I may be in the minority on just how small that chance is but that is the consensus, and I respect it.

        So for now, all things Third Party including Greens/Jill Stein go here unless the issue being discussed is one that includes more than one party such as Johnson and Stein filing lawsuits with DNC/RNC to be on the debate stage.

        When you hear people raising reasoned objections to Trump’s policies and appointments, odds are that you’re listening to the sort of thoughtful dissent that’s essential to any semblance of democracy, and it may be worth taking seriously. When you hear people criticizing Trump and his appointees for doing the same thing his rivals would have done, or his predecessors did, odds are that you’re getting the normal hypocrisy of partisan politics, and you can roll your eyes and stroll on. But when you hear people shrieking that Donald Trump is the illegitimate result of a one-night stand between Ming the Merciless and Cruella de Vil, that he cackles in Russian while barbecuing babies on a bonfire, that everyone who voted for him must be a card-carrying Nazi who hates the human race, or whatever other bit of over-the-top hate speech happens to be fashionable among the chattering classes at the moment—why, then, dear reader, you’re hearing a phenomenon as omnipresent and unmentionable in today’s America as sex was in Victorian England. You’re hearing the voice of class bigotry: the hate that dare not speak its name.  -- John Michael Greer
    • beemerphill (206 posts)
      Profile photo of beemerphill Donor

      47. The Libertarian Option

      I don’t want to vote for either of the two big names running, so decided to vote Libertarian again. They have received my vote in the past, and will probably get a few of them in the future. Johnson is OK, and much better than the major candidates. Then I ran across this. It might be of interest to other Independents like me.

      http://controversialtimes.com/politics/libertarian-vp-candidate-says-rifles-are-weapons-of-mass-destruction-pistols-are-worse/

      I would have started a new thread, but my post count is too low.