What is the purpose of federal taxation?

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What is the purpose of federal taxation?

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  • #1to support federal spending
  • #2to keep people in line
  • #3 to pay for wars and social security
  • #4 to give value to our currency
  • #5 to discourage a barter system
  • #6 cuz rich people are meanie
  • #7 to keep the federal reserve solvent
  • #8 none of the above
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    • #397742
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 596

      Lets test the jpr financial accumen 😉

    • #397750
      Cold Mountain Trail
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 12,044

      –to give value to our currency.  the same as everywhere else.

      “And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.”

    • #397775
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 596

      Well i was afraid of this, after some comments by @hasslecat , i thought i would take a poll. It looks like @Cold Mountain Trail and I are the few and far between

      • #397783
        HassleCat
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 6,366

        The legitimate purpose of taxing people is not the same as the actual purpose. I don’t mind the fuel tax, since it does result in better roads and bridges. Of course, I’m disregarding bridges to nowhere and other pork barrel stuff paid for by the gas tax.

    • #397804
      Yanath
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,744

      The purpose of pooling collective resources in any society, is to provide for the common good.

      Currency is for tracking the value derived from organized labor and the earth’s resources, as it is converted and dispersed throughout the economic structure. If it does not accurately reflect the inherent value of physical resources and energy, then it has no real meaning, and causes chaos.

    • #397879
      gordyfl
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,455

      Money raised through income tax is used to pay for the programs, benefits, and services provided by the U.S. government for the benefit of the people. Essential services such as national defense, food safety inspections, and federal benefit programs including Social Security and Medicare could not exist without the money raised by the federal income tax. While the federal income tax did not become permanent until 1913, taxes, in some form, have been a part of American history since our earliest days as a nation.

      Evolution of Income Tax in America

      While taxes paid by American colonists to Great Britain were one of the main reasons for the Declaration of Independence and ultimately the Revolutionary War, America’s Founding Fathers knew that our young country would need taxes for essential items such as roads and especially defense.

      Early Income Taxes Came and Went

      During the Civil War from 1861 to 1865, the government realized that tariffs and excise taxes alone could not generate enough revenue to both run the government and conduct the war against the Confederacy. In 1862, Congress established a limited income tax only on people who made more than $600 but abolished it in 1872 in favor of higher excise taxes on tobacco and alcohol.

      https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-the-us-federal-income-tax-3321600

    • #397901
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,173

      Not even kidding on that, sadly.

      I’m reminded of an amusing scene in “Dangerous Liaisons”. John Malkovich, playing a French count or duke during the last days of the French aristocracy, makes a bet with this bored, sneaky, malicious courtesan. If he succeeds in seducing this innocent beautiful virgin (played by Michelle Pfeiffer), he gets to sleep with Glenn Close’s character. Off he goes, and as part of his plan, he finds a way to get this girl’s family to hire a private investigator to look into his character. One day, realizing that this P.I. is on his tail and observing him, he ‘saves’ a poor family in a deliberately conspicuous manner – from eviction from their home over unpaid property taxes, by paying those taxes for them, earning him high praise from stated family, though viewers know he’s little more than a liar and con artist, having basically slept his way to the top while this family clearly toils and labors day in and day out (and yet, he gets them to praise HIM). Adding to the whole grifting theme is that the costumes, make-up and sets for the film were exquisite, and so the producers did a great job of putting you in the time and place in which the story unfolds. You can almost hear “let them eat cake” in every other scene.

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #397932
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 596

      In a fiat money system, (that means backed by nothing more than your word), the only purpose of taxes is to give value to the currency. Everyone here should understand this. If our money was backed by gold, it would be different.

    • #397937
      Hamlet
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 53

      …and using tax money to provide for the needy guarantees they will be underserved despised.

      If the Government wants to buy something then it need only print the money and buy it. DONE. This was demonstrated by the CARES Act.

      If the Government wants a bridge it prints the money and builds a bridge. The money circulates through the economy and the country has a bridge. No taxation necessary. If the Government wanted to feed and clothe and medicate everyone it could without having to worry over the tax ramifications. The only explanation for tying taxation to services is cruelty and fascism.

       

    • #397951
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 596

      Thank You @Hamlet most folks on this board fail to understand this basic truth and i am really trying to get through to them. Any help would be greatly appreciated 😎

    • #397952
      Fasttense
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,535

      Reading everyone’s reply makes me think taxation has many uses and purposes some unintended.

      I’ll never understand why we have such a f*cked up federal reserve banking system that seems to crash regularly. Why don’t we just do a Bank of the US and keep all the profits? Because capitalism? Would we even need federal taxes if we ran a nationwide bank?

      A look back in history clearly indicates taxes are for taking wealth away from the masses and passing it on to the already filthy rich. In most capitalist, feudal and slave economic systems taxes are to feed wealth up to those in power. There’s got to be a better way.

       

    • #397954
      closeupready
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,173

      If the purpose of federal taxation is to give a national currency value, then that’s all North Korea would need to do – raise taxes.

      Asking this question honestly. If you can help me understand your point, I’d appreciate it, because there’s a part of your argument that sounds Pizzagate-ish. That is, “I don’t HAVE to make sense because IT’S ALL SO OBVIOUS!!!!111!!!”. It’s not obvious to me. @lownslow

      The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #397991
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 596
    • #397996
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 596

      @closeupready i am no expert 😆 but i hope the above video helps. Nixon took us off the gold standard in 1971 in order to afford the vietnam war. If the american people understood our system, they would be so pissed. America is not only fiat, but also the worlds major reserve currency, which means lots of worldwide usage of dollars. North Korea is also fiat, but not many countries want it, so they cant print away like we do. For more info look up steve grumbine at real progressives website or check out twitter feed of stephanie kelto (bernies former financial advisor) hope that helps, sorry, im not great at explaining 😉

      • #398029
        closeupready
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 2,173

        I sometimes do a sort of Socratic line of questioning, not only to get specifics, but to get everyone thinking more about … stuff. 🙂

        Was going to go off on a tangential discussion about FATCA, but I’ll save it for another time. @lownslow

        The opinions and personal views expressed herein are solely those of the author, and should never be taken seriously.

    • #397998
      B Calm
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,063

      Anyway that was what my deceased father taught me.

    • #398016
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 596

      @B Calm that may be true for state taxes, since states (united) are not sovereign entities, hence, they cannot issue currency. Im talking about federal, fiat, taxes from a sovereign nation. Before 1971, you could exchange your money for gold at any bank, now you cant, we start wars just to force other nations to use our money in day to day transactions just to keep our reserve status

      • #398199
        ArtfromArk
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,444

        The US went off the domestic gold standard in 1933, when FDR demonetized US gold coins and gold certificates, and gold ceased to be coined and used as money in the US. What you are thinking about is gold convertibility, which was a system laid out at Bretton Woods that became fully functional starting in 1958. In this system,  the US dollar would be the currency of international trade. In return, the US would convert dollars held by foreign member banks into gold at a fixed price of $35.00 per ounce, with the foreign currencies pegged to the US dollar (for example, the Japanese yen was pegged at 360 yen per dollar). That system lasted until August 1971, when it became obvious that many more US dollars were circulating overseas, than there were US gold stockpiles to cover them at $35/ounce.

        And no, you couldn’t exchange paper for gold at any US bank after March 1933. Between March 1933 and December 31, 1974, gold ownership by US citizens was restricted. A lot of people at the time thought that it was illegal to own any gold besides jewelry, but that was not the case. Originally, US residents were allowed to own up to $100 face value (slightly less than 5 troy ounces) of US gold coins, but that restriction was gradually relaxed so that by the mid-1960s, when I started collecting gold coins, ownership of US gold coins by US residents was no longer limited. Starting in 1961, certain foreign gold coins (dated 1960 or later) could not be imported directly into the US by private citizens (only dealers who had a special license could do that). And during the entire 1933-74 period, most US residents could not own gold bullion (bars), with the exception of certain types of professionals like dentists and jewelers. All restrictions on owning gold in the US were ended by a law signed by President Ford and put into effect on December 31, 1974.

        “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

      • #398240
        ArtfromArk
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,444

        Some of those European countries that were redeeming dollars for gold, were using that gold to restrike gold coins that they had previously made in the 1910s and earlier, and selling them for a profit to American collectors, who wanted bullion coins but were prohibited from buying gold bars. Austria and France did a pretty good business with that, with France restriking 20 franc “Roosters” (mostly dated 1908 and later), and Austria restriking various coins from its past, including 1 ducat, 4 ducats, 100 coronas, 4 florins/10 francs, 8 florins/20 francs, almost all of which are dated 1915 (with some dated 1892)

        “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

    • #398238
      lownslow
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 596

      @ArtfromArk thank you for setting me straight on the gold thing. That was very informative. What do think about my main point: taxes do not fund govt spending     steve grumbine, the founder of real progressives has been hammering this point for years, but folks on this board keep saying we have to raise taxes to enact progressive things, and i am arguing otherwise. Thank You again for the gold lesson

      • #398244
        ArtfromArk
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 1,444

        I think taxation at the federal level is a way to keep the lower classes down. I mean, Trump had no problem conjuring up trillions to help the stock market, which mainly helped the richest of the rich. At the state level, as has been mentioned elsewhere, states cannot coin their own money (as per the Coinage Acts of 1792 and 1864), so most states have to tax their residents and visitors to provide necessary services. I really have to wonder how states with no sales tax make ends meet.

        “There’s a new spirit abroad in the land. The old days of ‘grab and greed’ are on their way out. We’re beginning to think of what we owe the other fellow, not just what we’re compelled to give him. The time’s coming… when we shan’t be able to fill our bellies in comfort while others go hungry, sleep in warm beds while others shiver in the cold.... And God willing, we’ll live to see that day…” Basil Rathbone,"Sherlock Holmes Faces Death" (Universal 1943)

        • #398250
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 19,954

          Oregon, I think, has a progressive state income tax so they don’t need a sales tax. Ohio, OTOH, has the worst of both worlds. We have a flat state income tax which keeps being whittled down, usually by Republicans, and the counties and cities make it up by either raising their own flat income taxes and/or increasing property taxes and local sales taxes.

          Meanwhile, the Ohio state sales tax keeps going up and up. Add all of the local and state sales taxes together, and we’re approaching Texas levels. Last I checked, they were about 7.5% on everything except food. Ohio law prohibits sales taxes on food. States like Texas tax the shit out of food.

          Such a charmingly fair country I live in.

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

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