What road should progressives take?

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    • #258236
      eridani
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 7,871

      What road should progressives take?

      n the eve of the Iowa caucuses, what should progressives – whether inside or outside the Democratic Party – be doing? I am not one to advocate voting for the lesser evil. But, to my mind, Bernie Sanders is not a “lesser evil.” He is the real thing. No, he is not perfect. People like Kevin Zeese will insist that he made errors in connection with Venezuela and other issues, and perhaps Kevin is right. But if you look at Bernie’s history and his platform, anyone can see that he follows the same road at all times. He will do the best that he can to have a progressive America. And he is far more trustworthy than Elizabeth Warren or Amy Klobuchar. The fact that the New York Times endorsed them is proof enough that they are really centrists.

      So what road should progressives be taking? They can cut their own throats and vote Green again – or vote for some other party that stands no chance of winning. Or they should vote for Bernie. At the moment where we are, he is leading in the polls. On the other hand, if he gets only 30% of the Democratic vote, then at the nominating convention the DNC will haul out the super delegates and use them to choose Klobuchar, Buttigieg, Warren, or even Biden. Anyone but Bernie. Once again, they will cheat him out of victory.

      Should that happen, then that is the time to decide the next step. What? Support Warren if she can be nominated? Or abandon the Democratic Party for good and all and try to found a New Party which is totally progressive? In my view, progressives should wait and see – because Bernie may win.

      And how might he win? By accepting the support of Greens and other progressives. By making every attempt to form a coalition of progressives, using votes from within the Democratic Party in order to outmaneuver the DNC’s super delegates strategy.

      Jesus: Hey, Dad? God: Yes, Son? Jesus: Western civilization followed me home. Can I keep it? God: Certainly not! And put it down this minute--you don't know where it's been! Tom Robbins in Another Roadside Attraction

    • #258247
      Stockholmer
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 535

      The path marked ‘Exiting from US territory’.

       

    • #258297
      algernon
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 539

      I don’t think what is “progressive” is defined by a “path”.  There may be many paths.

      To take an obvious example, Bernie Sanders is widely praised for his consistency – and derided for it by those on the right – and this consistency is in advocating for the same “progressive” or “leftist” or “communist” or however labeled ideas over decades, up to the present day.  But Bernie isn’t the only one who’s been consistent in advocating those same ideas over the years.  The US is backward, the most backward of economically developed countries in the world, and more backward than many of the countries the US has bombed into the stone age.  Many of the ideas that Bernie is fighting for in the USA, and which are said to be impossible/irresponsible/socialist in the USA, are already realized in the civilized world.  As in: realized to define what the common citizen understands to be their civilization, their culture.  It isn’t about Bernie, or “paths”, it’s about the ideas that he fights for, and the kind of society achieved by them.

      So the debate is over ideas, whether they’re acceptable to the majority or not, not over nebulous “paths”.

    • #258307
      Fugitive Birdie
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 303

      I have often said to those who insist we should start a third party, thst first we have to prove that the current Democratic Party is irredeemable.

      If they cheat us (we know they will try) and deny Bernie the nomination, then we have done our part to prove this.  This will destroy the Democratic Party.

      Next step will be to create a new party.

      • #258397
        Ohio Barbarian
        Moderator
        • Total Posts: 19,352

        @fugitivebirdie Exactly. If Bernie has the plurality of delegates at the DNC, and if the DNC manipulates the convention to deny him the nomination, the Democratic Party will and should be destroyed. The model is in place for a new party, or progressives can easily take over the Greens and get them on the ballot in all 50 states before the next elections. The Democrats will go the way of the Whigs and the Federalists, or become a perennial minor party like the Libertarians.

        And the world will suffer with 4 more years of Trump.

        It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

        You can jail a revolutionary, but you can't jail the revolution.--Fred Hampton

        • #258501
          Jim Lane
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 700

          In the context of a convention, I don’t agree with the assumption that a plurality is everything.

          Suppose Biden shows up with 40% of the delegates, with the other centrists having dropped out.  Bernie and Tulsi each have 30%.  (Obviously, this is unlikely, but it’s just a hypothetical for purposes of illustration.)  Would you say that Biden, having a plurality of the delegates, must be the nominee?  I wouldn’t.  I’d expect Bernie and Tulsi to strike a deal, resulting in a Sanders-Gabbard ticket.

          If that happened, some people (including those on a site I’m not allowed to name) would screech that the convention had been manipulated and that Biden had been cheated, but no one on JPR would think so.  With those hypothetical numbers, a coalition that assembles a majority, to the exclusion of the plurality candidate, would be the fairest outcome.

    • #258314
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,817

      As far as I am concerned, Bernie is the only progressive option at this point.  Warren has revealed herself to be a liar and a coward.  Tulsi could be a valid option, but not for 2020, she simply doesnt have enough support.

      Biden and Buttigieg are simply two more vichy dems.

    • #258324
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,668

      I will only vote for Bernie, and if Bernie is not the candidate, Green it is.  The only way I am “throwing away my vote” is if I vote for a Vichy Dem.  And ALL the rest are Vichy Dems.

      That this bullshit is starting to seep out now tells me that I may be being “groomed” for that “lesser evil” pragmatic bullshit, and I will never be on board with that.  However I vote, it will absolutely NOT be for a Democrat unless that is Bernie on the ballot.  Someone I consider my best friend has just been diagnosed with stage three breast cancer.  The fucking hoops her Medicare supplement insurer are making her jump through, the terrible options she is being given as to where she gets treated – this should not be happening.  This puts all the Democrats except for Bernie on my no fucking way list.

      Warren is NOT PROGRESSIVE.  She is actually proud of that.  To all who try to present Warren as a viable alternative – fuck you, and fuck off.

      • #258408
        Cold Mountain Trail
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 11,202

        “The fucking hoops her Medicare supplement insurer are making her jump through, the terrible options she is being given as to where she gets treated – this should not be happening.”

        I am going through something similar with a friend.   Hoops, networks, long distances to travel.

    • #258338
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,817

      @stockholmer

      A lot of us cant.  My fiance has (should have, needs to get her mother to finish paperwork) dual citizenship – US and Canada.  So, if we got married we could move there – but I would lose my SSI and we would lose about a third of our income.  It would take time for me to qualify for anything at all in Canada, too.

      I’m not optimistic about being able to move any time soon.  Just not enough resources, nor do I have a particular skill set that Nations want in immigrants.  I am learning various things, perhaps in time i can get some kind of certification in automechanics, computer repair or something.  Just not yet.

      Maybe if i won a lottery.

    • #258396
      xyzse
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 1,735

      This previously Unaffiliated person is now a card-carrying Democrat.

      I’ve learned the importance of voting in the primaries to try to reform the party, while having no qualms of voting for a 3rd party and allowing the Democrats to lose if they mess around on the primaries with their unfair practices.  Even then, they get the benefit of the doubt where I try to figure out who would do more damage.

      It is People Over Party in my mind, as it always has been, to many of them, it has been the reverse.

    • #258398
      ravensong
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,222

      A fiercely united and single minded coalition of progressives now.  There is no time, or room, for silly squabbling about minor issues.  For the first time since FDR, we have a real possibility of electing a progressive POTUS who will work for all the people, and work to transform the US government from a government of, by, and for the plutocrats, into a government of, by, and for the People.  If we squander this once in a lifetime opportunity, the failure to save our country, and our planet, is on us.

      Every progressive needs to unite behind Bernie in an effort to get him elected.  The plutocrats and other anti-democracy forces will throw every lie and corrupt action possible at Us to prevent Bernie from being nominated and elected.  We must form an enormous, united, unstoppable force of human will and effort, right now, because that is what is going to take to save the country, democracy, and the planet from destruction and extinction brought about by the greed and savagery of the authoritarian fascist Oligarchy of the Plutocrat empire.

      If the Democratic establishment cheats us again, we boycott everything, institute the most massive general strike in history, and use any and every direct action possible to end the malevolent and unjust stranglehold that wealthy private interests have on our government, our lives, our media, and the health of our planet.

      Dear DNC New Democrat Democratic Party Establishment:

      If you cheat us again, we will end you as any kind of relevant political party forever.  It’s very simple: just play fair, transparently and honestly.  If you use your committees and superdelegates to override the clear will of the people, you will never win another major election.

      It really is that simple.  We know how difficult this will be for you, because you are owned and controlled by wealthy private interests, but all you have to do is ensure that the Democratic party nomination process is totally, completely, absolutely transparent and honest.  No games, no weaseling, no strings attached, no deception, no fraud, no duplicitous legal chicanery, no nada.

      If Bernie wins the popular vote in the nomination process fair and square, Bernie gets the Democratic party nomination for POTUS.  You cheat us again, all your money won’t buy the Democratic party another minute of political viability.

      So just do the right thing. It’s not rocket science.

      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #258428
      bazukhov
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 2,969

      Political parties are merely coalitions.   In order to win elections the party with the biggest coalition wins (unless the EC prevents it).

      What to do if your coalition fails to attract enough voters to win?   Broaden it by making it less dogmatic by finding common ground among other available factions.   The Democratic party is loosely made up of various factions, progressive, liberal, centrist, conservative, and free thinkers.  None of them can win alone.

      If your faction can’t convince other factions to join you, you lose.   If you don’t win you don’t govern.

      That’s politics.

       

      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

      • #258459
        Maedhros
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 730

        You are describing the Democratic Party of the 60s:

        The Democratic party is loosely made up of various factions, progressive, liberal, centrist, conservative, and free thinkers.

        Today’s Democratic Party is mostly corporate lawyers, hedge fund managers, neoliberal economists, and shady opportunists – with a few token liberals and progressives who sneaked in through the cracks.  The Party is already irredeemable – look at the roster of the leadership and rules committees tweeted by Kevin Gosztola.  Every last one a Republican with the numbers filed off:

        https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/01/26/whos-who-people-against-progressive-agenda-dncs-perez-under-fire-convention

        The “big tent” characterization of the Democratic Party is a charade designed to hoodwink liberals and progressives into supporting a toxic organization.

         

        His body recovered from his torment and became hale,
        but the shadow of his pain was in his heart;
        and he lived to wield his sword with left hand
        more deadly than his right had been.

        • #258528
          bazukhov
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 2,969

          Today’s Democratic Party is mostly corporate lawyers, hedge fund managers, neoliberal economists, and shady opportunists – with a few token liberals and progressives who sneaked in through the cracks.

          Mostly?   Really?

          If that’s the case, why is Bernie leading in the polls?     Are the lawyers, hedge managers, neolib economists, shady opportunists, supporting him?

          Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

    • #258451
      sonofspy777
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 5,980

      Easy. The High Road.

      “Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.”
      ~Samuel Clemens

    • #258507
      Satan
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 4,344

      Best case scenario is that Bernie takes a commanding lead in the primaries and wraps this dragonshit up by the end of March.

      Worst case scenario – if the DLC gets away with fucking him out of the nomination again?  Massive write in campaign.  No Green party. No other third party protest votes that ain’t going to amount to shit. Everybody writes Bernie’s name on the goddamned ballot in November, and dares these motherfuckers to not count them.

      Even if the end result is the Orange piece of shit remaining in the White House until he drops dead, at least the message will be clear as to how and why that happened.

      To all the lurking PUMAs reading this and ready to spew all over SV and Death Squad Daily Kos about how “pro Trump” I am, there’s a simple solution…

      DON’T STEAL THE FUCKING PRIMARY AGAIN, IDIOTS!

      "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable". - John F. Kennedy

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