Which is more important, intent or results

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    • #314633
      Thom Paine
      • Total Posts: 259

      I have pondered this over and over for many years and am not sure.

      Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me.” Do you agree?

      How about symbols of hate? Is the rebel flag a symbol of hate? How did it become that? What if no one accepted it as a symbol of hate?

      The colonist army were called Yankee Doodles by the British to mock them. The colonists didn’t accept it as a insult but wore it like a badge of courage.

      I saw a video of a young AA male run into a group of Neo-Nazi’s and ripped down their Rebel flag and ran off. Should liberals condone that? If so why? Because you think it’s a hate symbol? I bet the neo-nazi’s think the LBGT flag is a symbol of hate. Are they justified in ripping it down?

      Maybe it’s the intent that we object to. We believe that the neo-nazi’s are waving that flag to try to insult or disparage us and that’s what we object to. What if we denied them the pleasure of insulting us? Maybe getting some rebel flags of our own. Wouldn’t that neutralize their attempt at using that flag as a symbol of hate?

      Help me here I am in way over my head and need more vodka.

    • #314638
      • Total Posts: 3,607

      Those of us in the north should display it as a symbol of how our ancestors joined the Union Army and drove Robert E. Lee into the sea. The rebel battle flag we see today only became popular as a symbol of defiance to school desegregation following the Brown vs Board of Education decision. Segregationists began waving the rebel battle flag in the late 1950s to symbolize their defiance of federal efforts to integrate the public schools. I feel like displaying one with a sign that says “Enemy Flag Captured by My Great Grandfather at Battle of Ignorant Hill.” If people feel like displaying an enemy flag, that’s fine. Same idea applies to Nazi flags, Soviet flags, etc. Freedom of speech. If I feel like printing the rebel flag image on rolls of toilet paper, I can do that.

      • #314642
        Thom Paine
        • Total Posts: 259

        I am not looking to reenact the Civil War, that’s an issue of another day,  but was using the Rebel flag as an example of a hate symbol.  Who gets to define what is a hate symbol?  Was the AA male justified in ripping down the Rebel flag?   Can anyone decide what should be ripped down?

    • #314661
      • Total Posts: 334

      It was focused upon one child who’s attitude is everything because that child can command his thoughts through bold actions.

      Bigotry, prejudism, and other disgusting biases of hatred are entrenched social diseases. No word or symbol is going to change those people. The American militia adopted the Yankee Doodle Dandee label empowering them to kill their oppressors. They didn’t care about semantics.

      “Go and tell Alexander that God the Supreme King is never the Author of insolent wrong, but is the Creator of light, of peace, of life, of water, of the body of man and of souls;...what Alexander offers and the gifts he promises are things to me utterly useless;..." Dandamis, a great sannyasi of Taxila.Excerpt From: Yogananda, Paramahansa. “Autobiography of a Yogi.”

    • #314665
      NV Wino
      • Total Posts: 5,236

      To me the rebel flag simply represents a period of our country’s history. The people who fly it today, as an act of defiance, seem to be not very bright. The Nazi flag on the other hand, represents hate and genocide. Collecting/displaying it as representing a period of history, okay. Flying it to represent one’s values, not so okay.

      Another question to ponder is should we remove confederate statues? Again, to me, they represent a period history. My personal feeling is that public art such as the confederate statues, should be retired after X number of years to make space for new art. Make Art Great Again! Keep the artists employed!

      “As we act, let us not become the evil that we deplore.” Barbara Lee
      “Politicians and pro athletes: The only people who still get paid when they lose.” William Rivers Pitt

    • #314678
      • Total Posts: 482

      “there’s only one thing in life you can control”.   i understand that, but sometimes wish i focused myself more with acting on it

    • #314688
      • Total Posts: 312

      And those words need to be done calmly and with the intent to understand and learn. Yelling at someone won’t work. Taking someone’s flag (using your example) or breaking windows in Starbucks makes you look weak, not them.

      So results are more important than intent. I’d much rather ask someone to help me do something, they tell me No, but later on change their mind and come help me, than I would someone who tells me Yes they’ll help me, but then they never show up.

    • #314746
      • Total Posts: 2,698

      Flags are bits of colored cloth that people wave to advertise who they are.   They symbolize little more than egotism and vanity.

       Man is the only creature that refuses to be what he is.

      Albert Camus



      Tell me, great captain, how do the angels sleep when the devil leaves his porch light on? Tom Waites

    • #314765
      • Total Posts: 2,140

      who is driven by fear and ignorance fueled hatred, whose personal belief system/sense of ethics motivates them to intend to deliberately cause harm to innocent people, or who deliberately causes harm to innocent people, and who seeks personal and collective power to legally harm innocent people?

      We the People either collectively “quarantine” them in order to prevent them from having legal power and authority to control us, or we suffer the consequences of their legally enforced ignorance and fear driven hate motivated delusions and control over us.

      A humane and functional democratic society is dependent on a collective ethical belief system that places the happiness, equality, liberty, and protection from deliberate unwarranted harm done by those whose motives, intentions, and actions clearly indicate their malicious desires.

      Who decides what is a hate symbol? A reasonable citizenry in a humane and functional democracy can easily do this, by evaluating the motivation, intent, and significance of the symbol. If it is clear that the display of the symbol signifies the glorification of clear harm done to innocent others in the past or present, or is displayed to promote the clear intent to harm innocent others based on its significance in the past, or present, then the symbol is displayed with the intention of terrorizing innocent people.

      Intent to deliberately harm.

      Results are more important.  The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

      Never Again.

      First they came for the Communists….

      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a Communist

      Then they came for the Socialists
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a Socialist

      Then they came for the trade unionists
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a trade unionist

      Then they came for the Jews
      And I did not speak out
      Because I was not a Jew

      Then they came for me
      And there was no one left
      To speak out for me

      ~ Martin Niemoller

      “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed…”

      Failure to quarantine the ignorant, the irrational, the hateful, and/or the malicious from power always has dire consequences.  The present condition of the United States is clear proof of this.



      “A lie doesn't become truth, wrong doesn't become right, and evil doesn't become good, just because it's accepted by a majority.” ~ Booker T. Washington

      The truth is, there’s no such thing as being “anti-Fascist.” Either you are a decent human being with a conscience, or you are a fascist.
      ~ Unknown

    • #314785
      99th Monkey
      • Total Posts: 204

      Firstly, one needs look no further than the “n-word” to see that words indeed can be hurtful.   As for flags & symbols I’ve long been a fan of the Cascadia Flag, being a resident of Oregon; but it’s not especially suitable for causes etc beyond that narrow geographic scope.  As such, I try to never miss an opportunity to foist the Cascadia Anthem & flag on unsuspecting eyes & ears so hear goes:

    • #314797
      • Total Posts: 2,153

      Even if we got rid of the symbols they are still racists.

    • #314799
      • Total Posts: 2,153

      A LGBT flag is not a hate symbol. Check with the ADL.

    • #314817
      • Total Posts: 864

      “The work of European linguists and other scholars was taken up by racist groups, for whom the swastika was a symbol of “Aryan identity” and German nationalist pride. This conjecture of Aryan cultural descent of the German people is likely one of the main reasons why the Nazi Party formally adopted the swastika or Hakenkreuz (Ger., hooked cross) as its symbol in 1920.

      The Nazi Party was not the only party to use the swastika in Germany. After World War I, a number of far-right nationalist movements adopted the swastika. As a symbol, it became associated with the idea of a racially “pure” state. By the time the Nazis gained control of Germany, the connotations of the swastika had forever changed.”https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/history-of-the-swastika

      “The flag — a red background with a blue St. Andrew’s Cross and 13 white stars that represent the states of the Confederacy — was the battle flag flown by several Confederate armies. One of those armies was led by General Robert E. Lee — an often romanticized figure in U.S. history, who led an army whose soldiers kidnapped free Black farmers and sold them into slavery, encouraged the beating of slaves who tried to escape, and fought to protect the institution of slavery. With his surrender at Appomattox Court House, the Civil War came to an end. Though Lee later distanced himself from the flag — requesting that it not be displayed at his funeral during a time in which the flag was used to commemorate Confederate soldiers — after his death, the flag became widely used by various groups and organizations that opposed civil rights.” https://www.teenvogue.com/story/history-confederate-flag-explainer

      Like all symbols, the flags’ meaning have changed. But just because the meanings have changed, does NOT make those newer meanings invalid. Whatever a person’s intent is in using a symbol that has come to represent horrific things does not matter. They are the communicator. They are responsible for choosing the right symbol for their communication. If you are going to use a symbol, you should be aware of what it actually represents now, today at this moment. Because you ascribe different meaning to it is not important. Your personal feelings about what it means does NOT matter. It’s not about you.

      Words are symbols whose meaning change frequently like “cool” or “gay”. If I decide to use either word, I should be aware that they may be confusing used in their original context. Just because my intent was to convey a meaning that those words no longer represent, is not the reader’s problem. It is my problem because I chose those symbols to communicate an idea and have failed in that communication by using confusing words.

      If I decide to fly the Southern battle flag or the Swastika, I should know what it has come to mean. If people look at those symbols I chose to use, and decide I’m racist or am insulting them, that’s my fault for using those symbols. If it makes them so angry that they tear it down, then maybe that was exactly my intent. I can not go back and say those symbols really mean something different to me when their meanings are clearly established in today’s world. Too bad, so sad, I should have known better or chosen better.

      • #314860
        • Total Posts: 1,809

        It is now this.


        I don't waste my time teaching pigs to sing.

        • #314934
          Ohio Barbarian
          • Total Posts: 14,723

          @hobbit709 Notice how the arms of the swastika go clockwise? It’s an original Aryan Hindu emblem, a typically Indo-European stylized circle of life or karma or what-have-you. It means peace, balance, harmony, strength, understanding and other good things.

          The Nazi swastika is tilted onto a point and goes counterclockwise, for good reason. Hitler or whichever Nazi bastard came up with it was trying to channel the “pure” Aryan spirit, the Nazi incarnation of which was a horribly twisted version of the original.

          By the same token, the ancestor of the Confederate flag is simply St. Andrew’s Cross, now the national flag of Scotland. and the St. Patrick’s Cross, once a flag of the Protestant Ascendancy in Ireland, and still the red part of the X in the British Union Jack. There were lots of Scotch-Irish in the Southern states, so it’s no surprise the Confederacy adopted some version of those other flags as its battle flag.

          The Confederacy is long dead. Its symbol should go join it in the past. It should only be flown in historical re-enactments and movies on the subject and such. It used to also just mean a “rebel” in some parts, but now…the haters own it. Time to retire that sad old flag.

          It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

          Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

      • #314926
        Cold Mountain Trail
        • Total Posts: 8,882

        there’s a swastika in the floor tile of a church in these parts, built in the 20s.  There have been occasional debates about removing it, but the tile floor couldn’t be recreated easily…

        By the early 20th century it was used worldwide and was regarded as a symbol of good luck. The swastika’s worldwide use was well documented in an 1894 publication by the Smithsonian.<sup id=”cite_ref-8″ class=”reference”>[8]</sup> The symbol appeared in many popular, non-political Western designs from the 1880s to the 1920s, with occasional use continuing into the 1930s.

    • #314836
      Ohio Barbarian
      • Total Posts: 14,723

      It’s a UCV(Union & Confederate Veterans) reunion ribbon, which has a porcelain Confederate flag over two hands clasped, both white hands, but one with a blue sleeve and the other with gray. It was my great-grandfather’s, who was a Confederate soldier who attended Civil War veterans reunions where vets from both sides would get together and reminisce and no doubt drink alcohol in vast quantities. My ancestor was at Pea Ridge, Shiloh, and Vicksburg. The Union vet version had the 35-star Stars-and-Stripes. This one dates from 1884.

      It’s just one ribbon. There are over half a dozen others, all in a glassed display case, that were passed down to me from my grandma because I liked history. African-Americans have seen it, and said it was cool that I honored my ancestor, and done is done. The display is over a Union officer’s sword that another ancestor of mine found on a battlefield in Louisiana and kept as a memento.

      Nobody I’ve met thinks that’s a symbol of hatred. OTOH, I’d never dream of flying the Stars-and-Bars from my house or having one on a bumper sticker or a T-shirt. Those are meant to be symbols of hatred and intimidation. Besides, I wouldn’t want anyone to think I was a Republican. Ye gads. Besides, one would have to go into my study to even see it.

      This is a crappy answer to your question, Thom, but I think intent, results, and context all matter. Life is complicated.

      It is better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.--Eugene Debs

      Show me a man that gets rich by being a politician, and I'll show you a crook.--Harry Truman

    • #314944
      • Total Posts: 864

      But their meanings have been significantly changed. If you use those symbols to communicate other ideas, aside from the racism, bigotry, hatred, Nazism and slavery they are currently associated with, beware you will be misunderstood.

      You may think they mean something else but you can not arbitrarily change the meanings of words because you want them to mean something else. It’s not about what you think they should mean. It is what it is.

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