MannyGoldstein (2257 posts)July 14, 2017 at 9:03 pm
Who among us hasn't forgotten a thing or two? Or three. Or four. Or…
Lil’ Trump had no meetings with Russians Lil’ Trump had no set-up meetings with Russians. Lil’ Trump had no set-up meetings with Russians where he represented the Trump campaign. Lil’ Trump had no set-up meetings with Russians where he represented the Trump campaign and government policies were discussed OK, there was a set-up meetings with Russians where Lil’ Trump represented the Trump campaign and government policies were discussed, but it was about orphans. Orpahans, I tell ya! OK, I met because I was told an individual had opposition research then met with them, but I had no knowledge that the Russian government was behind it.
Well, I guess I was told that the Russian government was behind it. But the information wasn’t interesting.
A former KGB sergeant was in the room? And a translator? I don’t know how I forgot to mention that.
Who among us hasn’t had a few moments of forgetfulness like that? And at the advanced age of 39, alas, the mind isn’t what it used to be.
So when people tell you that the Trumps are lying like crazy about their contact with Russia, now you can fight back with the truth!robertpaulsen, eridani, Ohio Barbarian and 23 othersjeff47, BlueAK, Utopian Leftist, Odd John, N2Doc, WillyT, Tierra y Libertad, seemslikeadream, 2cannan, ravensong, Octafish, Alloy89, Lucas Jackson, PADemD, iggy, LaaDeeDaaVA, Scuba, a2liberal, ThatGuy888, Major Hogwash, 7wo7rees, Stumpy Pete, broiles like this"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it" - Upton Sinclair
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whatchamacallit (762 posts) (Reply to original post) July 14, 2017 at 9:38 pm
1. Russians = what?
Some people from Russia?
Some people from Russia who worked or associated with some unspecified Russian government officials at some point in their lives?
Some people from Russia who are known to be currently working for Vladimir Putin?
The empty language of Russiagate is what makes it a joke (so far).The ring is out of my nose.
MannyGoldstein (2257 posts) (Reply to whatchamacallit - post #1) July 14, 2017 at 9:50 pm
3. So they didn't lie like crazy.
Thanks for setting me straight."It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it" - Upton Sinclair
whatchamacallit (762 posts) (Reply to - post #3) July 14, 2017 at 9:53 pm
They lie about everything. What narrative that proves is yet to be determined.The ring is out of my nose.
MannyGoldstein (2257 posts) (Reply to whatchamacallit - post #5) July 14, 2017 at 9:55 pm
6. So they lie like crazy because they have nothing to hide.
Got it."It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it" - Upton Sinclair
whatchamacallit (762 posts) (Reply to - post #6) July 14, 2017 at 10:05 pm
7. I imagine TrumpCo has plenty to hide
Their lies are suspicious, but they’re not direct evidence of a crime.The ring is out of my nose.
MannyGoldstein (2257 posts) (Reply to whatchamacallit - post #7) July 14, 2017 at 10:09 pm
8. Which is why we have an investigation
Because they are very consistent with a crime having been committed, and wholly inconsistent with Innocence.
whatchamacallit (762 posts) (Reply to - post #8) July 14, 2017 at 10:17 pm
10. Yeah, and I eagerly await the evidentiary results of the investigation
Until then it’s a bias-driven, guilty until proven innocent in the court of public opinion, shitshow.The ring is out of my nose.
MannyGoldstein (2257 posts) (Reply to whatchamacallit - post #10) July 14, 2017 at 10:20 pm
11. I beg to differ
Based on the Trump Crew’s behavior, they’ve definitely broken the law by lying and so forth.
whatchamacallit (762 posts) (Reply to - post #11) July 14, 2017 at 10:25 pm
12. That's the problem so far isn't it?
What law? Perjury? Fraud? Espionage? Treason? “Whatever, just give us something”?The ring is out of my nose.
MannyGoldstein (2257 posts) (Reply to whatchamacallit - post #12) July 14, 2017 at 10:27 pm
13. Lying under oath
Lying on signed documents that have criminal penalties for lying.
Democrats and Republicans should both be held to the law.
whatchamacallit (762 posts) (Reply to - post #13) July 14, 2017 at 10:44 pm
If there’s evidence of crimes commited by the Trumpkins, they must be charged and tried.The ring is out of my nose.
Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts) (Reply to whatchamacallit - post #12) July 16, 2017 at 2:13 pm
57. Conspiracy. That has already been proven beyond a reasonable doubt by Donny Jr's
own words."Identity politics is the last refuge of the politically incompetent." --Me, with a hat tip to Isaac Asimov
whatchamacallit (762 posts) (Reply to Ohio Barbarian - post #57) July 16, 2017 at 9:35 pm
64. We know he was digging for dirt
To my knowledge, what hasn’t yet been established is if his contacts were there on behalf of the Russian government, and if so, what specific laws were broken. If it turns out Junior’s conspiracy was illegal let him fry.The ring is out of my nose.
Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts) (Reply to whatchamacallit - post #64) July 18, 2017 at 2:28 pm
66. I think it was. I also think he thinks he is untouchable because he is rich.
He has good reason to think so. That really, really needs to be changed. We’ll never do it with our current crop of D’s and R’s, though."Identity politics is the last refuge of the politically incompetent." --Me, with a hat tip to Isaac Asimov
tripleQ (485 posts) (Reply to whatchamacallit - post #10) July 15, 2017 at 4:43 am
18. The media is reporting what's
known thus far.
As well as allegations hurled by both sides.
Why call it “bias-driven”? It’s evidence-driven. The evidence comes from sources, emails, and Junior’s string of lies.
Would you prefer the media to report nothing, hide the allegations, and then spring the Final Story in two years when all investigation is wrapped up?
“Guilty until proven innocent”? No. More like “Suspected of wrongdoing, for pretty strong reasons, and under investigation, and in the news.” Which is exactly what happens to others suspected of newsworthy crimes – from alleged child-murderers to alleged celebrity-comedian-serial-rapists to alleged email-server-misusers.
Do you also get offended when allegations against those people make the news? Hell, poor Bill Cosby hasn’t been convicted of anything. I am sure he is angry that a “bias-driven. Guilty-until-proven-innocent shitshow” has ruined his career.
. Like you, I am waiting for the post game wrap-up before I make up my mind about what Trump did. Unlike you, I have no problem with the story being in the news as the investigation unfolds.
whatchamacallit (762 posts) (Reply to tripleQ - post #18) July 15, 2017 at 8:42 am
24. I don't know, I guess I have a problem with terms like "the Russians"
or “kremlin associated”, as I don’t know exactly what that means. Also, the media have had a most unique obsession with Trump. From the start of his campaign they’ve been in a frenzied loop of setting him up to knock him down. And boy, does he help deliver that ratings pot of gold! You say the evidence comes from sources, emails, and junior’s string of lies… this is true, but evidence of what exactly? The media and opportunists like Rachel Maddow are throwing everything they can find at it, without being clear what ‘it’ is. That’s par for the course tho. Right now the schism on JPR is between those who believe it all adds up, and those who are skeptical.The ring is out of my nose.
peacecorps (3259 posts) (Reply to - post #3) July 15, 2017 at 4:13 am
16. If Trump lies all the time then individual lies don't prove he he has anything
If he only lied some of the time, then his lies might be more indicative of covering up wrongdoing in those particular instances.
Hence, advantage to the congenital liar.Bernie: The Democratic Party must decide which side it is on. It cannot be the side of Wall Street, fossil fuels and the pharmaceutical industry. ............ We cannot be 'America first,' or 'Germany first.' We all have our own interests, but we must be an international community. .............................................. We cannot forget the pain of the American people who are struggling economically and do not want the discussion to only be about Mr. Trump. ...... Mr. President, appointing a special counsel is not a witch hunt. It's the right thing to do and your Republican colleagues agree. .............................. Trump says, [essentially] “Hey all of these, ABC, CBS, VOX, everybody else, anybody in the mainstream media, they are all liars, they hate me, they are trying to undermine me, so don't believe a word of it.” That is a very profound development. ... to say, “Everything you are seeing in the media is a lie” — wow, that is pretty dangerous stuff.
Stryder (324 posts) (Reply to peacecorps - post #16) July 15, 2017 at 4:38 pm
50. Hmm, hadn't thought of it that way.
I don’t know if I agree but I can see you point.
Man, is our current “reality” FUPed.
zeemike (1096 posts) (Reply to original post) July 14, 2017 at 9:41 pm
2. OMG,,,contact with the Ruskies.
It’s treason I tell ya…it’s like they sold uranium to Russia or something.
I am scared, really scared…Save us Resistance Democrats.You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”
MannyGoldstein (2257 posts) (Reply to zeemike - post #2) July 14, 2017 at 9:51 pm
4. Whew, and I thought they lied like crazy
THanks for setting me straight.
zeemike (1096 posts) (Reply to - post #4) July 14, 2017 at 10:16 pm
9. Oh please don't be strait.
I never meant to shake your faith in liars. But just to agree with you that the Ruskies are terrifying us all.
And it never stops, we hear about them day in and day out …they are everywhere…I even check under my bed two or three times a day. They try to make contact with me and I know they want to sap my precious bodily fluids.You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”
ctsnowman (424 posts) (Reply to zeemike - post #9) July 15, 2017 at 6:53 am
tripleQ (485 posts) (Reply to zeemike - post #9) July 15, 2017 at 2:51 pm
38. Silly post.
Sarcasm for sarcasm’s sake?
What you aren’t telling is *why* you are dead set on believing Trump’s innocence and feeling outraged by allegations linking him to possible wrongdoing.
Or do I misunderstand you?
zeemike (1096 posts) (Reply to tripleQ - post #38) July 15, 2017 at 3:34 pm
44. For what other sake is there sarcasm?
But you want to know why?…so I will tell you. I believe in principles…you know like innocent until proven guilty…the presumption of innocence is a foundation of the law after all. And that seems to have been ignored by some on the left, just as it was ignored by those on the right it concerns me because while I would expect it from the right I never thought the left would be so willing to go over to the dark side…but I guess I was fooled by them into thinking they were virtuous and actually for fairness.
I suppose it is the grand disillusionment…It started with Obama as Bush 2.0 and now this. So maybe I am not one of you after all…perhaps you should cancel my membership card.You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”
FugitiveBirdie (1579 posts) (Reply to zeemike - post #44) July 15, 2017 at 3:55 pm
47. Keep your membership card.
Most JPR members want the government and the media to do the people’s business.
They certainly are not.
Having an investigation is fine. Heck that’s why there is a Federal Bureau of Investigation. But they don’t talk about investigations in process because Innocent Until Proven Guilty.
But this is really about co-opting the Political Revolution with their bullshit coup.
Got to have an enemy other than the Pleutocrats.
zeemike (1096 posts) (Reply to FugitiveBirdie - post #47) July 15, 2017 at 5:12 pm
51. Right you are.
This is about co-0pting . The neo liberals have no intention of letting go of power. And they know how to manipulate the rank and file to achieve their goals.You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”
peacecorps (3259 posts) (Reply to zeemike - post #2) July 15, 2017 at 4:21 am
17. Contact with Russians, Iranians, Chinese, Cubans, Mexicans – is a good thing.
Meeting with them during a campaign to inform yourself and their side about their view on issues and your campaigns view on issues – a good thing.
Meeting with foreign nationals in the hope/expectation that they will provide your campaign with dirt on your opponent, well Trump Sr says ‘most people’ would do it. I don’t agree with the president but that is nothing new. And saying that ‘most people’ would do it is not the best legal defense in the world.
If the meeting was to discuss the former (to discuss foreign policy issues), Don Jr, Manafort and Kushner have nothing to worry about. If it was to discuss opposition research (Trump Sr’ s legal analysis notwithstanding), the plot might be a little thicker.
tripleQ (485 posts) (Reply to peacecorps - post #17) July 15, 2017 at 5:02 am
19. Well, I don't know about this
“meeting to discuss foreign policy issues is a good thing”
An unelected guy who is running for Prez should be pretty careful about meeting a foreign nation to discuss foreign policy. It gives the impression of several unsavory things:
1) A quid-pro-quo deal: “Do you promise to repeal sanctions on us? If so, we will help you get elected.”
2) A bribe: “Help me get elected and I will be very very friendly to your interests”.
3) Illegal meddling by civilians: I don’t think civilians are supposed to negotiate/influence foreign policy… although I suppose it happens all the time in smoky rooms where billionaire real estate moguls meet.
4) Corrupt business deals: “Let me build my hotels across Russia and on the cheap, and I’ll put money in your pockets.”
So all in all, meeting a representative of a foreign power (esp a hugely powerful one) WHILE campaigning for president and while running an international company is a pretty terrible idea.
If done at all, it should have been done in a totally transparent manner with news crews present so there was no question of bribery, blackmail, or treason.
Trump Jr presumably knew that. He didn’t want a transparent meeting though. So he lied and snuck around.
zeemike (1096 posts) (Reply to peacecorps - post #17) July 15, 2017 at 6:02 am
21. It's as thick as you want it to be.
Just cook it longer…and this stew has been cooking now for 7 months.
But there is no crime in any of this…only a theory that there was a conspiracy…a conspiracy theory, that the Tumps were plotting some treason with a country we have never been at war with.
I never thought I would live to see the day that the Democrats would resurrect McCarthyism and that I would be in the position that I would have to defend someone like Trump…but here we are, down the rabbit hole.You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”
peacecorps (3259 posts) (Reply to zeemike - post #21) July 15, 2017 at 10:08 am
29. "But there is no crime in any of this." We shall see. Mueller and juries, if
there are any, will determine whether any crimes were committed.
Meeting with foreign nationals in the expectation of receiving help (opposition research) for your campaign is, at best, of questionable legality.
But, as Bernie has said repeatedly, let’s proceed with the investigations but get back to focusing on more important issues while they are ongoing. He is and we should be more concerned with what Trump and congress are trying to foist on us with regards to health care than the minutia of what did and didn’t happen between the Trump campaign and Russia.
zeemike (1096 posts) (Reply to peacecorps - post #29) July 15, 2017 at 1:16 pm
36. So we empower someone with money and power to find a crime.
Much like they did with Whitewater…and he spent what 200 million and found a blow job that Bill lied about? We thought that was a witch hunt then but things are different now…we are OK with witch hunts as long as we really hate Trump.
And I am sure that if enough money is spent on this they will find something…a t not crossed or an i not doted and boom they got him. And there will be joy throughout the MSM and among the far left…and among the ordinary people disgust at the whole damn thing.
But this is what democracy looks like just before it fails. What comes next is anyone’s guess, but it won’t be good for anyone but the rich and powerful, you can bet on that.You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”
tripleQ (485 posts) (Reply to zeemike - post #36) July 15, 2017 at 2:58 pm
39. Sometimes investigations lead nowhere –
That is true.
Sometikes they uncover crimes.
Its impossible to know in advance. That’s pretty much the *purpose* of investigating: to try to find the truth.
You seem to be calling for all investigations everywhere to be canceled unless the outcome is already known.
Like, if your mama is found suddenly dead, clutching a bunch of bizarre emails from a mysterious Russian lawyer, you would want the cops to say “We won’t waste money on an investigation, because for all we know there’s no crime here.”
zeemike (1096 posts) (Reply to tripleQ - post #39) July 15, 2017 at 3:21 pm
41. You investigate when a crime has been committed.
That is the reason for an investigation…to solve the crime, not to find a crime where none is apparent.
In your example your mama is dead…that is the reason to investigate…Not just cast out the net and hope to snag something because you hate the guy and are pissed that he won the election.
My problem with it is that if it is wrong for one it is wrong for all, no matter who they are or how much we might hate them…and a witch hunt for anyone is wrong and you should not call yourself progressive if you cannot accept that principle of fairness…at least that is my opinion. But what do I know…perhaps I am not what is known as progressive today. Things seem to change a lot.You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”
peacecorps (3259 posts) (Reply to zeemike - post #41) July 16, 2017 at 6:14 am
53. You don't think every country investigates to see IF some crime has been
committed within their borders? They wait for a crime to become apparent THEN start investigating?
My guess is that the security services in every country are always searching to discover if crimes are being committed or have been committed then direct further investigations when one is discovered.
zeemike (1096 posts) (Reply to peacecorps - post #53) July 16, 2017 at 10:24 am
56. Oh I am sure they did.
The KGB and the Stasi were very efficient in that respect. And the fascist were the gold standard.
But in a democratic country that believes in fairness there has to be reason to believe a crime has been committed…not just because you hate the person and want him punished for something.You see things; and you say “Why?” But I dream things that never were; and I say “Why not?”
sadoldgirl (1521 posts) (Reply to tripleQ - post #39) July 15, 2017 at 3:31 pm
43. This i fascinating, indeed
About a year ago we decided that we could not trust the media,
because they did not just show bias but also misrepresented a lot
of facts. A lot of us claimed that the owner corporations were
framing the stories. Yet now we are supposed to trust them in
their reporting? That’s very curious.
Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts) (Reply to sadoldgirl - post #43) July 16, 2017 at 2:28 pm
58. You don't have to trust the media to realize there's there some serious shit
attracting all of these flies around the Trumps. Exactly what that is I’m not sure; I’m willing to bet it’s something to do with real estate. Doesn’t mean the Russian government was directly involved at all–it probably wasn’t. But just because Trump was Hillary’s opponent in the general doesn’t make him some kind of a saint.
I don’t understand why anyone here is willing to give the SOB the benefit of the doubt. He’s scum, and always has been.
sadoldgirl (1521 posts) (Reply to Ohio Barbarian - post #58) July 16, 2017 at 5:23 pm
63. Iam not concerned about HRC nor Trump. I see a very simple,
yet dangerous game played by the Deep State. It wants (and
probably needs) to divide the nation. The more we scream
“Russia, Russia”, the more we make him look like a victim to
his voters. We have known this tactic to work for centuries. In
the meantime the Repug Congress will try to pass laws, which
will please the DS. Instead we should try to unify the people
around 3 issues: Stop corruption, stop inequality, and stop the
perpetual wars. I think that a lot of his voters would agree with
those issues for their own reasons. This is what Bernie realized,
and is the only possible way to stop the PTB, who have far more
power than any President could dream of.
Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts) (Reply to sadoldgirl - post #63) July 18, 2017 at 2:27 pm
65. Well, I AM concerned about the Trumps. That does not mean I don't agree with
you on your issues, however. With me, it’s inequality of wealth and standard of living that are the biggies, though I suppose they both result from legal corruption, of a sort, as does our voting system. And “Deep State” is such a vague, catch all term that it means different things to different people.
Of course, so does “liberal.”
Beebee (1358 posts) (Reply to original post) July 14, 2017 at 11:47 pm
15. Russians, Russians, Russians- keep those Russians rolling"confrontation of the self is as important as with others. we have to be ready to be surprised by unexpected rhetoric, or even possible communion, with those previously seen as impossible." NuttyFluffers
Stockholmer (1346 posts) (Reply to Beebee - post #15) July 15, 2017 at 5:44 am
Octafish (3772 posts) (Reply to original post) July 15, 2017 at 6:13 am
22. It's not like collaborating with a foreign power to steal an election is a crime
That’s what that nice man Eddie Munster said.
ETA: He and that nice Senator Turtle seem to have forgotten that everyone from President Trump and Vice President Pence to First Son The Donald Jr. and First Son in Law Jared Not Subway Jared and to the lower ranks clubbing hired hands Paul Manafort and Roger Stone forgot lots of times to mention the Russians.
E2TA: Surprised to read so many of Bernie Sanders’ supporters don’t find that, uh, odd.“Get the truth and print it.” -- John S. Knight
djean111 (4211 posts) (Reply to Octafish - post #22) July 15, 2017 at 9:15 am
26. So – if the Russians gave Trump absolutely true information about Hillary
that revealed, well, revealed even more glaringly, her corruption – that is “stealing” the election? Sort of like buying a used car, without an inspection? Trust the used car salesman? Only, IMO, much more important than a car, as far as how many people could be adversely affected? I find THAT uh, odd.You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie? Um, nope.
tripleQ (485 posts) (Reply to djean111 - post #26) July 15, 2017 at 3:04 pm
40. I don't know if it's a crime
But it would clearly be a case of a foreign power tilting the election toward the candidate they favor.
Thats a bit worrisome, don’t you think?
It makes me wonder WHY they wanted to tip the scales toward Trump. Maybe you think it was out of the goodness of their hearts. Or because they disliked Clinton’s corruption…. Them being so scrupulously honest, and all..
How about the next election: You think they might tilt the scales against your favorite Berniecrat?
Or do you think, if they meddled successfully in 2016, they will NEVER EVER do it again?
djean111 (4211 posts) (Reply to tripleQ - post #40) July 15, 2017 at 3:29 pm
42. Hillary seems to be absolutely savoring the thought of being "tough" with
Russia. She and Obama started, what, six wars, I have read? Why would ANY country that Hillary seems to be taking aim at want her to be president? Why did Obama endorse Macron? Should he have done that? Why was that okay? Why is it okay for Hillary to preside over so much regime change in Latin America? Again, what you call “tipping the scales”, I see as a more full disclosure of a candidate’s background.
If a Berniecrat was as corrupt as Hillary, I would want to know about it. But worrisome? Why should the US be exempt from something they do all over the world? That makes no sense. We tilt scales at will. A lot. And, really, Brock and his repulsive minions were/are the folks trying to sink Bernie. That’s okay because they are American? Does what actually happens to the citizens after the election even matter to anyone? See my sig lines? I was never going to vote for Hillary, decided that even before she announced her candidacy. Because those are not the values of a Democrat.
Gee, what are you advocating regards Russia? And why is purported information about Hillary “meddling”? We don’t deserve to know? That’s a worrisome attitude. And I expect all kinds of nations to meddle in elections. If the CIA can have a plan to infiltrate all of the French candidates’ campaigns, why should we be angry if another country does that to us? Sorry, not buying the angst. And the only thing I can do, really, is to never ever vote for Hillary or any other DINO, and influence others of my acquaintance to feel the same way. No argument or discussion or whatever on the internet can change that.You think the only reason that people won't vote for a warmongering Third Way fracking-enabling cluster bomb throwing H-1B increasing lying pandering corporate and Wall Street shill who says she has no problem putting abortion rights on the table is because we are mad about Bernie? Um, nope.
sadoldgirl (1521 posts) (Reply to tripleQ - post #40) July 15, 2017 at 3:44 pm
45. Do you remember that Bubba helped Yeltsin for his reelection?
Do you realize how often – and sometimes in brutal ways – we
have interfered in other countries’ elections? Just check Clinton
and Honduras for instance. I don’t think it is the right thing to do,
but cannot claim as a US citizen the high road. BTW up to now it
is all rumor and innuendo. So, let’s just stick to evidence and
FugitiveBirdie (1579 posts) (Reply to tripleQ - post #40) July 15, 2017 at 4:06 pm
48. They don't even have evidence of a crime being committed.
They claim the WikiLeaks came from Russia.
But the only people who could know if that was true have jumped up and down saying it was not Russia.
They have also quietly indicated it was Seth Rich.
So without evidence of any crime our entire government and media has engaged in numerous investigations to find proof a crime was committed.
Meeting with some Russians is not a crime.
Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts) (Reply to djean111 - post #26) July 16, 2017 at 2:31 pm
59. If they did, the Trump campaign never used it.
But what does Hillary have to do with the Trump family’s, and his former campaign manager’s, dealings with the Russian oligarchy? Why do people keep bringing Hillary into this? I’m tired of typing her name.
whatchamacallit (762 posts) (Reply to Octafish - post #22) July 15, 2017 at 9:20 am
27. We do find it odd
Many of us would rather wait to see what the investigation finds than dance like puppets at the end of media strings.The ring is out of my nose.
Octafish (3772 posts) (Reply to whatchamacallit - post #27) July 16, 2017 at 6:56 am
54. That's why it's important for people to think for themselves.
You know, gather information and then come to an understanding.
In one example from this case, Trump told the director of the FBI to go easy on Flynn, a government official under investigation for colluding with the Russians. While I respect and admire the Russian people and nation, I don’t like the idea of the Russian government using its power to elect a man who now drives the destruction of the United States of America from the top.
Doubt what I write? That’s good, especially from Democracy’s perspective.
Then think about what damage to progress Gorsuch on the Supreme Court has already done, Sessions means for racists and power, DeVos devolving public education and protecting college rapists, Zinke for public land and resource grabbers at Interior, Pruitt for polluters at EPA, and just about every other cabinet level appointee are actively helping divide and destroy America.
The retired general at Defense is about the only one I trust to do the right thing and he gets left out when Trump meets with Putin at the G-20.“Get the truth and print it.” -- John S. Knight
sadoldgirl (1521 posts) (Reply to Octafish - post #22) July 15, 2017 at 5:42 pm
52. Firs, there is no evidence or proof to your statement about collaboration.
These are allegations. Secondly, if you consider it a crime, then Bubba
should have gone to jail for interference on behalf of Yeltsin, and AIPAC
should be exiled from the US, and Obama should be in trouble for
supporting Macron. Lies by themselves don’t constitute a crime; otherwise
there would be no government at all. Let the investigation go forward, and then judge.
The fascinating part is that most politician know how and when to lie. This proves to me
that the Trumps are totally inept. One has to make sure that the lie cannot be proven
until years later (see Johnson and the gulf of Tonkin or W and WMDs), when one can
blame someone else. The Trumps’ lies are so obvious and can be disproved within days
which shows either that they have something to hide or that they have become extremely
defensive due to the media attacks. Both are possible, but we don’t know the answer.
Patience has its own rewards. At this time we are watching political theater.
Octafish (3772 posts) (Reply to sadoldgirl - post #52) July 16, 2017 at 7:08 am
55. Yes there is proof.
The emails Donald Jr. provided are solid evidence that the Trump campaign violated the law.
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump – helped along by Aras and Emin.“Get the truth and print it.” -- John S. Knight
Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts) (Reply to Octafish - post #55) July 16, 2017 at 2:32 pm
60. Yep. Conspiracy, pure and simple. Right now.
You don’t need to actually buy something from a fence so long as you went to meet him to buy something from him in order to be convicted of conspiracy.
NJOCK (419 posts) (Reply to original post) July 15, 2017 at 8:50 am
25. JD breaks it down“The first revolution is when you change your mind about how you look at things, and see there might be another way to look at it that you have not been shown. What you see later on is the results of that, but that revolution, that change that takes place will not be televised.” -Gil Scott-Heron
seemslikeadream (1162 posts) (Reply to original post) July 15, 2017 at 9:43 am
28. Speaking of criminals …..Gen. Yellowkirk Flynn
I have not forgotten about Gen. Yellowkirk Flynn….
I have not forgotten about Michael Ledeen…
I have not forgotten about FORGED NIGER DOCUMENTS and who was involved with them
I have not forgotten who trumpty dumpty hired as his National Security Advisor
Yes that Michael Ledeen
NOVEMBER 1, 2005
The Plame Affair Leads to Rome
by GARY LEUPP
The report names four men as the likely forgers of the documents (Michael Ledeen, Dewey Clarridge, Ahmed Chalabi and Francis Brookes) and suggests that the forgeries may have been planned at December 2001 gathering in Rome involving Ledeen and SISMI chief Nicolò Pollari. Also in attendance at that meeting: Larry Franklin, Harold Rhode, Manucher Ghorbanifar, Antonio Martino and others including a former senior official of the Revolutionary Guard in Iran. Here is a true rogues’ gallery.
Michael Ledeen: neocon columnist, National Review Online contributing editor, specialist on the thought of Machiavelli and on Italian fascism, former employee of the Pentagon, the State Department and the National Security Council, was involved in the transfer of arms to Iran during the Iran-Contra affair. Active in the American Enterprise Institute, Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), and Center for Democracy in Iran (CDI). Advocates regime change by force in Iran and Syria.
Nicolò Pollari: Author of many publications on legal and economic matters, investigation techniques and intelligence. Tax law Professor at the Mediterranean University of Reggio Calabria. SISMI head since October 2001.
Dewey Clarridge: former CIA operative, famous in mid-1980s for his role in the Iran-Contra Affair. Head of CIA’s Latin America division 1981-84, directed the mining of Nicaragua’s harbors and helped organize the Contras. Indicted in November 1991 on seven counts of perjury and false statements, pardoned by first president Bush Christmas Eve 1992.
Ahmad Chalabi: convicted swindler, leader of U.S.-funded Iraqi National Congress, neocon ally, presently one of two deputy prime ministers in Iraqi government.
Francis Brookes: member of the “Rendon Group,” a “public relations” body formed by the Pentagon engaged to promote Chalabi and the Iraqi National Congress.
Larry Franklin: colonel in USAF reserve, subordinate to Douglas Feith in Defense Department, Middle East specialist, under arrest for espionage for Israel.
Harold Rhode: Pentagon official, Middle East specialist, Ledeen protégé, American Enterprise Institute, heavy neocon.
Manucher Ghorbanifar: Iranian exile, arms dealer, one-time CIA operative distrusted by CIA since 1980s. Key figure in the Iran-Contra scandal.
Antonio Martino: Founding member of Forza Italiano (Berlusconi’s political party), Professor of Economics, adjunct scholar with the Heritage Foundation, Italian Defense Minister.
best buds with Ghorbanifar
passion for a campaign of serial “regime-change”
A veteran of the Iran-Contra “arms for hostages” scandal
Michael Ledeen, proclaimed “the rightness of the fascist cause” in 1972.
that’s correct one of the Niger uranium forgerers has one of his best buds back in the White House ….
Ledeens main obsession seemed to be the overthrow of Iran.
a neo-conservative who has close ties to one of America’s leading “Christian” Dominionists
this is the man trump chose ……I have not forgottentruth, balance, order, harmony, law, morality and justice
Tierra y Libertad (1476 posts) (Reply to original post) July 15, 2017 at 10:09 am
30. It's not the burglary that brought Nixon down but the attempted coverup.
Nixon, however, was a (besides being an asshole) a smart guy. The Donnie isn’t.
But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing. Thomas Paine
Flying Squirrel (451 posts) (Reply to original post) July 15, 2017 at 10:53 am
MannyGoldstein (2257 posts) (Reply to Flying Squirrel - post #31) July 15, 2017 at 11:13 am
32. Was there anything in the OP that you take issue with?
I’m guessing that you must be thinking that I’m making shit up, because that’s what NanceGreggs did.
Flying Squirrel (451 posts) (Reply to - post #32) July 15, 2017 at 12:25 pm
N2Doc (3704 posts) (Reply to original post) July 15, 2017 at 12:17 pm
33. toon"But nothing ever changes unless there's some pain" - Tears For Fears "Goodnight Song"
MannyGoldstein (2257 posts) (Reply to N2Doc - post #33) July 15, 2017 at 12:38 pm
35. Welcome to the Society of Hillary Apologists
I’ll PM you a link to the video with the secret handshake.
HawkeyeX (711 posts) (Reply to original post) July 15, 2017 at 2:41 pm
37. Me? Never believed that Russia was even involved in anything.
Election meddling, no. Trump and Russia, maybe. But Clinton lost on her own fucking merits. It was Bernie’s time. Clinton never was the One, and those bitter Democrats do not even believe it.
The voters said “No” on a right-wing Democrat, and wants a REAL lefty in.
Beebee (1358 posts) (Reply to HawkeyeX - post #37) July 15, 2017 at 4:25 pm
49. They are not Rawhide, Hawkeye, they are Butthurt
Yippee, eye ah! Yippee, eye oh, Ghost Riders, in the sky."confrontation of the self is as important as with others. we have to be ready to be surprised by unexpected rhetoric, or even possible communion, with those previously seen as impossible." NuttyFluffers
so far from heaven (10170 posts) (Reply to original post) July 15, 2017 at 3:45 pm
Forgot what I was gonna say.
Damn."When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun.'" -Groucho Marx
Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts) (Reply to so far from heaven - post #46) July 16, 2017 at 2:43 pm
61. Eat some spicy green chili.
Then post. Then smoke that Colorado import.
Ohio Barbarian (3254 posts) (Reply to original post) July 16, 2017 at 2:46 pm
62. You're so tough on Donny Jr, Manny. Maybe he just smoked too much
weed, and, you know, uh, forgot.
cascadiance (2192 posts) (Reply to original post) July 18, 2017 at 3:04 pm
67. The terminology here of "One, two, three…" has me thinking of this song…
… which is relevant to our interventionism today in so many other countries too in addition to its spirit of resistance!Vote AGAINST the race to the bottom by both corporate parties who seek to screw workers over globally!
MannyGoldstein (2257 posts) (Reply to cascadiance - post #67) July 18, 2017 at 8:31 pm
68. Great stuff
Lord, I need a drink. Or the not-brown acid.
LaaDeeDaaVA (1601 posts) (Reply to cascadiance - post #67) July 19, 2017 at 11:05 am
69. Thanks for the memory, cascadience!
Freedom of the press is guaranteed only to those who own one. A.J. Liebling