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Home Main Forums General Discussion Who is/are the Deep State(s)?

  • Fire with Fire (1195 posts)
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    Who is/are the Deep State(s)?

    By far the biggest challenge facing a concerned citizen of the USA in 2018 is figuring out what to believe amid the contradictory gales of facts, lies, invective and distraction generated by digital communication.  It is pretty easy to show, from any of several points of view, that somebody is lying, and lying intentionally.  What is not so easy is to know any damn thing for sure.

    Until the last few years, the Main Stream Media had the power to define the national discourse, which for most of the 20th century was led by a handful of nationally distributed news organizations:  ABC, CBS, NBC, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, Time, Newsweek and US News and World Report all employed global reporting teams and they all adhered to a shared sense of journalistic ethics.  Ironically, one of those shared standards was that a politician’s private life was none of the public’s business.  JFK and RFK could not remain in office in today’s Me-Too environment

    Another common ethic from those traditional national news organizations was patriotism.  From the sinking of the Maine, through the Tonkin Gulf Incident and all the way into this century with the tale of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq and the allegation of Russian interference in the election of 2016, you see those main stream outlets repeating what they are told by people employed by the Federal Government — without skepticism.  I have no doubt that the editors who approved all those stories believed that skepticism in those cases would have been unpatriotic.

    From my personal point of view, I don’t think the MSM ever was “honest” in the sense of being willing to print the truth when the truth bothers powerful people.  And I think that the resort to patriotism to explain away their complicity in spreading utter bullshit is nothing but rationalization.  But my life experience has taught me that the stories that journalists tell themselves in order to look in the mirror are the most deeply held of all convictions.  The old line has several variations — it is really easy to make somebody believe something when her paycheck requires her to believe it.

    So I do not give them any credibility now that they are all challenged by the unprecedented development of digital communication.  Today, you do not need a printing press and delivery trucks or TV cameras and broadcast antennas to spread a message — everyone of us on this board has access to an audience in the billions.  This is not a bad thing, it is a great thing for communication to be democratized.


    The difficulty of understanding what is going on in a world of 7 billion souls is now exacerbated by the reality that there is no longer a privileged narrative.   The old guard networks, newspapers and magazines are not even the same companies they used to be, and they just do not have the power to define the truth that they had just a couple of decades ago.  The advent of the internet has had the effect of turning the Main Stream Media into Pravda under the Soviet Union — the House Organ for the old order that is crumbling as we speak.

    We are all familiar with individual Know It Alls who can quote from their favorite “news” outlet to explain every little detail of existence.  The boldest initiative in marketing to such people is the Fox News Channel.  The old guard fantasizes that this challenge was one of falsehood undermining their truth, but that is absurd.  Rupert Murdoch just sold another set of lies.  This cacophony of bullshit puts the citizenry in the quandary of trying to figure out who is lying and who is telling the truth — or if every damn thing you hear is a lie.

    I would like to say Who Cares? and tune it all out — but other realities get in the way.  Global warming, economic collapse and war forever are just too hard to ignore.  So, I belong to this message board and nose around the internet on a daily basis trying to make my best guess about what the hell is going on.


    So now we all have to speculate about reality for the simple reason that nothing has inherent credibility.  Any tale you hear could be a con job.  Or a con job within a con job.

    One way to try to make sense out of 2018 is to follow the money.  Who gains from war?  Several trillion dollars have already been spent on the Bush-Obama-Trump wars, and most of the easily debunked bullshit “news” is obviously intended to keep people from raising any kind of a ruckus about what was originally called,  The War on Terrorism.  Now it has no name, it is just what all our politicians say we have to do, without even stating a reason for it.

    That is my world view — somebody in the government has arranged for wars to continue forever at a cost of about a trillion bucks a year, and growing.  But who?  You could not specify three more disparate personalities that Bush, Obama and Trump.  Compassionate Conservative, Hope and Change, Make American Great Again — three vacuous slogans, utter bullshit in all three cases.  But all suggesting a very clear message to voters:

    Compassionate Conservative — the slogan of a brand name, distinguishing itself from the red meat of Reaganism

    Hope and Change — the slogan of reform, acknowledging the need for change and offering hope that change will come

    Make American Great Again — a call for national renewal, akin to Obama’s slogan, offering to re-create the opportunities that evaporated under Bush and Obama.


    Yet what is the difference in their policies?  The War Forever rolls along no matter who is President.  That makes it obvious that somebody other than the President is prosecuting this perpetual war.  Who would that be?

    Many call it the Deep State.  I don’t object to using this term, because I think it is an accurate way to describe the people who staff the Federal Government, its contractors and the network of political support for the two parties.  The politicians come and go, but the people who really run the government are deeply entrenched, and in their own minds, probably think of themselves as patriots and selfless public servants.

    Although I do not object to that term, I only use it to annoy Hillarians.  It does drive them up the wall.  But I think the more persuasive term is Permanent Government.  It means the same thing as Deep State, but it is a much older and less evocative expression.  I can easily imagine career bureaucrats in the CIA or the State Department telling themselves that “national security” is too important to be left to political buffoons like W or Trump.


    This is an inherently weak way to argue, deducing what we imagine to be in the minds of people we cannot name — the quintessential “they.”  It is so easy for a smug “realist” to roll her eyes in disgust at this point.  We cannot even name who we are talking about, yet we are sure they exist and we are sure that we know what they are trying to do.

    It gets worse.  Not only do we not know who is calling what shots within the Deep State, it also seems clear to many on our board that there is a civil war going on within the Deep State.  That suggests not one, but two discrete Deep States at odds with each other — some apparently wanting brinksmanship with Russia and China, while others want to do business with the former Communist Bloc.  Some were supporting Hillary, while others supported Trump.


    But who the hell are we talking about?  And how do we explain our belief in the Deep State without making people think we are fucking idiots?



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    • Stockholmer (3996 posts)
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      1. Read Peter Dale Scott, he is the one who invented the term decades ago

      along with “deep politics”.


      • Fire with Fire (1195 posts)
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        3. Pretty damned Deep State

        From Scott’s web page:


        Click here to see a description and above all reviews of my book, The American Deep State: Wall Street, Big Oil, and the Attack on U.S. Democracy.


        From the link:


        We are sorry! This page does not exist or an error has occurred.

    • tularetom (2408 posts)
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      2. If there is one person alive today who could answer that question

      it’s George HW Bush.  Somebody needs to hook that lying old sumbitch up to a polygraph and beat/sweat the truth out of him before he takes his long overdue dirt nap.

      I went home with a waitress the way I always do  How was I to know she was with the russians, too? Notary Sojac
      • Johnny Rash (1412 posts)
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        5. I agree with you 100%

        Don’t bother to resort to tortures, the fucker has no heart!

        You may want to find a goof mind-reader – a telepathic of the kind – to search his gray-matter though! 

    • Johnny Rash (1412 posts)
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      4. Good reading…. thanks!

      It’s definitely not a “Dear Santa:” letter, but rather more like a “Dear Satan:” letter.    :evilgrin:

    • ThomPaine (5337 posts)
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      6. I think the idea of a Deep State is very logical. The CIA/DSA, etc. have

      unlimited funding and no oversight.  And for no other reason than self preservation they would logically “neutralize” anyone that might upset their apple cart.  I also think they most likely have some major corporations working with them but who is the question.

      • RufusTFirefly (3125 posts)
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        12. The Deep State probably dates back at least to the Business Plot

        Bankers and weapons manufacturers and Wall Street lay at the heart of it. The House of Morgan, DuPont, Remington, UBS, and, surprisingly, the American Legion, which functioned as the union-busting goon squad.

        Lots of politicians got things rolling, including former Democratic presidential candidate Al Smith and Republican Prescott Bush. Of course, Prescott was the last real Bush of prominence and the Deep State fizzled completely before it ever had a chance to gain any strength.

        That’s Prescott on the right and you know the guy on the left. But how about the guy in the middle? That’s Jack Rubenstein, aka Jack Ruby.

    • peacecorps (4774 posts)
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      7. Trump and the right want to "deconstruct the administrative (Deep?) state".

      The libertarian and far-right want to shrink the government so that you can “drown it in a bathtub”. Playing up a mysterious and nefarious ‘deep state’ in the federal government fits their anti-government mentality

      Bernie and the left talk about oligarchs, the rich and the 1% – mostly nominally outside government but in control of it.

      Bernie’s goal seems not to be “deconstructing the administrative state” but actually growing it and redirecting it to accomplish progressive goals. If Bernie saw an amorphous collection of government workers as a threat to his progressive agenda, he would say so

      Bernie agreed with Trump’s decision to withdraw from the TPP. If he agreed with Trump’s obsession with the “Deep State” I am sure he would say so. He has not.

    • rampart (230 posts)
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      8. the empire is not a constitutional republic

      but the us government, which remains in business only to arm and man the empire, retains the veneer of democracy.

      perhaps the “deep state” consists of international corporate oligarchs who meet at davos to divide territory and make deals?

      maybe the “deep state” operates inside and alongside intelligence agencies to ensure that the decisions of the oligarchs is executed by the constitutional republic? bribary and extortion, propaganda and “fake news” would be tools to such a deep state.

      my current best guess is that some time in the 1970s, during a party at studio 54, trump inhaled an alien body snatcher. that intersteller parasite is using the president to make the earth more hospitable to invading forces from its homeworld, warmer and with a highly co2 atmosphere. probably higher radiation levels as well.






      • glinda (2479 posts)
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        25. I am not joking when I say I agree somewhat with your last

        analysis but will place the “virus” from back in the 40-50-‘s range and has been in operation secretly within our government. When they found aliens they became them over time. Either that or there is a human species split with some being total embodiment of evil and the other side being too passive and intellectual to make headway fast enough to save the planet.

        We are in strange times with those not wanting the world to know because it is all crashing down. All about control. Wish we had names though. As long as they can hide they are protected.


        Animals know more than we do. - Native American proverb
    • Katashi (1239 posts)
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      9. The Person Behind the Deep State in one Picture.

      “He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing.” -Paul Atreides, DUNE
      • SandersDem (784 posts)
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        15. Nailed it!

        Fucking Coleman.

    • Ohio Barbarian (7813 posts)
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      10. I think you're talking about the revolving door between high-ranking

      government employees, be they elected officials, top military brass, or high-ranking bureaucrats, and various corporations. It’s very clubby.

      It’s like William Gladstone said back in the 1880’s:

      Someday someone will discover that the business of an empire was run by scheming generals, conniving politicians, and manipulative businessmen. (Or something similar. The quote was used in the old imperialist Charleton Heston movie, <i>Khartoum, </i>co-starring Omar Sharif as the Mahdi.)

      It’s gone on all of our lives. FDR armed the country to the teeth in World War II by guaranteeing profits for large manufacturing corporations. Truman solidified the system with the National Security Act of 1947. Eisenhower fed the system before he so poignantly warned us about the military industrial complex in 1960. The only time it was reined in at all was just a tad under JFK and then during the last year of Nixon, and during the Ford and Carter administrations. Most of the what little restraint there was was exercised by Congress asserting itself during and after Watergate.

      How quickly all of that got dropped! Money talks in a capitalist society, not morality. And who has more money than government-funded and/or subsidized corporations, hmmm???

      Great topic. Recommended for the Daily Radical.

      Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
      • leveymg (4271 posts)
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        24. C. Wright Mills termed it The Power Elite

        Mills was probably the greatest American sociologist and academic social critic of the Post War era.  It’s also the title of his 1956 book about who really runs the interlocking boards of prestigious institutions  and exclusive clubs they all belong to (and the silly hats that men used to wear).  Everyone should read it.

        • Stockholmer (3996 posts)
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          33. C. Wright Mills is a MUST read. Brilliant.

        • Ohio Barbarian (7813 posts)
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          36. Great book. Had to read it in college at the University of Texas. It wasn't very

          popular with a new Board of Regents, however. That professor never got tenure.

          Ignorance is the foundation of tyranny.   
    • Marym625 (29211 posts)
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      11. On The Daily Radical

      Take Action #StopFCC https://www.battleforthenet.com/breaktheinternet/ "Once the decision was made to go into Iraq as an invader and occupier,  it’s like our nation lost its conscience. And it has not yet gotten that conscience back." Madfloridian  
    • Tierra y Libertad (2174 posts)
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      13. The Illuminati? Bilderberg? Freemasons? Eders of Zion? Rosicrucians?

      The alphabet salad of Secret Services around the world?   The bankers?   Politicians?  The PTA?   The Mafia?

      There seem to be more conspiracy theories than conspirators.




      But such is the irresistible nature of truth, that all it asks, and all it wants is the liberty of appearing. Thomas Paine

      • RufusTFirefly (3125 posts)
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        14. Haha. Nice try! Keep poisoning that well!

        Even that notorious crackpot and certified loon Bill Moyers has had a show about the Deep State.

        Sorry to disappoint.

        • Xcaliber (68 posts)
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          16. Thanks for posting …saw it when it aired, seems even worse now if that's possi

        • Enthusiast (12104 posts)
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          17. Giant plus one!

          "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson
        • Johnny Rash (1412 posts)
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          28. Well, that settled it ….then!

          In the great U.S.A., there is only two GROUPS:  There’s THEM, then there’s the rest of us.

        • bobthedrummer (3836 posts)
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          44. Why don't you spend some time in post 42? I am the reality-based community Army

          of 1.   Know what I’m saying, RufusTFirefly?  Why would you link to a “crackpot”, “loon” interviewing Mike Lofgren?

          I’ll make it easier for ya here’s a link to Mike Lofgren, former Repub staffer that is a truthteller imo who was interviewed by a former Dem truthteller staffer that has retired.

          Mike Lofgren





          All power to the People.
          • RufusTFirefly (3125 posts)
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            46. I thought my sarcasm was obvious, bobthedrummer

            Apparently not?


        • snot (1195 posts)
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          53. Unusually good; thank you.

          https://www.battleforthenet.com/                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                         1% “To Do” list:

          1.  Control banking; 2.  Control communications (including “news” media); 3.  Control the government; 4.  Control education ; ....

      • Enthusiast (12104 posts)
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        18. There is no doubt that there are conspirators engaged in multiple conspiracies.

        Of this there is little doubt. These conspiracies are responsible for the dire state of the nation and the world today. These conspiracies are why we have criminal elections like Conova vs Shultz in 2016. The suggestion that these conspiracies do not exist is laughable.

        "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson
      • leveymg (4271 posts)
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        22. First to use the term "conspiracy theory" loses. You buy the beer.

      • Stockholmer (3996 posts)
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        35. Hmmm

    • Enthusiast (12104 posts)
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      19. Recommended to the max!

      "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson
    • Scuba (5181 posts)
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      20. Apparently the "deep state" is made up of Trump's political nominees …


      Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump on Tuesday escalated an extraordinary confrontation with his own Justice Department, suggesting it was part of a shady government “deep state” conspiracy against him.

      • RufusTFirefly (3125 posts)
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        23. Trump has done a wonderful job of discrediting legitimate ideas

        Both “fake news” and the Deep State exist. Unfortunately, they aren’t what Trump is pointing to. If you’re a fascist, one of the most effective techniques is to call your opponent a fascist first. It’s somewhat related to the tried-and-true Rovian technique of attacking an opponent’s strengths instead of his/her weaknesses. Her did this when she questioned Bernie’s record on civil rights thereby drawing attention away from the fact that she was a Goldwater Girl.

        • glinda (2479 posts)
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          27. And their lesser version of that is to say something then apologize.

          As if they mean it. Not.

          Animals know more than we do. - Native American proverb
    • ZimInSeattle (1904 posts)
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      21. The Deep State: The unelected dictatorship of money.

      The Committee of 300.

      Proudly #DemExited & #LeftOut  | "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable" - JFK | Bernie would have WON!  |“Fascism is a result of the failure of the left to provide an alternative” - Leon Trotsky | Sanders/Gabbard 2020 (PPP
    • D504 (189 posts)
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      29. It's CHENEY!!!

      Just kidding, sort of.

      I believe he has the power still that he found during his ‘VP’ tenure.

      As well as being highly involved in the BFEE or MIC, whatever.

      He’s immortal now, right?

    • Fire with Fire (1195 posts)
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      30. My own best guess

      Think of a gangster movie.  Any good gangster movie, like Goodfellas:


      From Henry Hill in the script:

      As far back as I can remember, I always wanted to be a gangster. To me, being a gangster was better than being President of the United States. Even before I first wandered into the cabstand for an after-school job, I knew I wanted to be a part of them. It was there that I knew that I belonged. To me, it meant being somebody in a neighborhood that was full of nobodies. They weren’t like anybody else. I mean, they did whatever they wanted. They double-parked in front of a hydrant and nobody ever gave them a ticket. In the summer when they played cards all night, nobody ever called the cops.


      For most of the guys, killings got to be accepted. Murder was the only way that everybody stayed in line. You got out of line, you got whacked. Everybody knew the rules. But sometimes, even if people didn’t get out of line, they got whacked. I mean, hits just became a habit for some of the guys. Guys would get into arguments over nothing and before you knew it, one of them was dead. And they were shooting each other all the time. Shooting people was a normal thing. It was no big deal. We had a serious problem with Billy Batts. This was really a touchy thing. Tommy’d killed a made guy. Batts was part of the Gambino crew and was considered untouchable. Before you could touch a made guy, you had to have a good reason. You had to have a sitdown, and you better get an okay, or you’d be the one who got whacked.


      Hundreds of guys depended on Paulie and he got a piece of everything they made. And it was tribute, just like in the old country, except they were doing it here in America. And all they got from Paulie was protection from other guys looking to rip them off. And that’s what it’s all about. That’s what the FBI could never understand. That what Paulie and the organization does is offer protection for people who can’t go to the cops. That’s it. That’s all. They’re like the police department for wiseguys.


      Nobody argues about whether organized crime exists.

      I raise this as an analogy. The Deep State is not a tightly controlled organization with a constitution and bylaws.  It is a shared mindset.  Like almost all imperial courts, nobody much worries about why they want America to be the biggest dog on the planet — it is their north star.  They are all political “realists” who realize that the overwhelming majority of Americans could not find Yemen on a map, and therefore have nothing meaningful to say about global politics.  From that premise, it is a short and very logical step to conceive of democracy as a problem to be solved rather the ruling authority for the country.

      Within this ad hoc group of people, there is no one in charge.  Just as the Five Families exert authority without the benefit of corporate structure,  there is a collective mindset in which all the players act as if there is a coherent management of our country. As Henry Hill put it:  “Everybody knew the rules. But sometimes, even if people didn’t get out of line, they got whacked. I mean, hits just became a habit for some of the guys.”

      So long as the Ship of State was sailing through favorable waters, any friction between the Deep State players could be resolved by conventional political and managerial techniques.  The Cold War was a money maker for a lot of people and a career maker for many others.  There was neither a political nor a practical challenge to the overarching logic of containment of the Soviet Union as national security policy.

      But the end of the Soviet Union and the start of the War on Terrorism upended the consensus behind containment.  And it was W Bush who shit-canned containment when he said, “We will not wait while dangers gather.”  Preemptive Regime Change has been our national policy since then, and the binary clarity of the Cold War gave way to the intellectually incoherent “policy” in place today.   Instead of defending our way of life from an irrational ideology, now we find ourselves arming both sides of fights that are utterly incomprehensible to the average citizen.

      I think the chaos of multiple wars in the Middle East is a reflection of the disorder within the Deep State.  There is no one person in charge, but there are several independent power centers like the FBI or the Council on Foreign Relations.  This allows specific individuals motivated by personal ambition to push their schemes with minimal fear of losing their positions.

      In short, I think the Deep State is not a unified entity.  It is instead the bureaucratic remnant of the Cold War foreign policy establishment without any actual structure or means of control.


      The idiocy of The Only Superpower telling itself that Trump v. Hillary was an exercise in Democracy is the best example I can give for saying that we are living in a functional anarchy, with nobody in charge.  The politicians and the permanent government share only one idea — that however badly they have fucked up the country with its $20 Trillion debt and their braindead regime change wars, the only thing worse than continuing the chaos would be to shut the whole game down, and for America to follow the advice of George McGovern and George Washington and come the fuck home.

      • MistaP (7715 posts)
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        38. yeah, it's a space for skulduggery rather than a shadowy World Council

        Contragate went through three or four stages before Ollie North was even a blip on the radar–an Argentinean network, a WACL network, and Yellow Fruit which was exposed when a trans hooker relieved a client of his cash and the list of assets

        http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the-hillary-clinton-campaign-intentionally-created-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/ (Third Way = Bell Curve)
      • Peace Patriot (3342 posts)
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        40. I just want to deconstruct one your paragraphs a bit, if you don't mind.

        I found I didn’t agree with some of it:

        But the end of the Soviet Union and the start of the War on Terrorism upended the consensus behind containment.  And it was W Bush who shit-canned containment when he said, “We will not wait while dangers gather.”  Preemptive Regime Change has been our national policy since then, and the binary clarity of the Cold War gave way to the intellectually incoherent “policy” in place today.   Instead of defending our way of life from an irrational ideology, now we find ourselves arming both sides of fights that are utterly incomprehensible to the average citizen.

         – – – –

        “Preemptive Regime Change has been our national policy since then” (since Bush Jr.).

        “Preemptive Regime Change” started way back with the U.S./U.K. overthrow of the first elected president of Iran, and the installation of the horrible “Shah” of Iran, who inflicted 25 years of torture and repression on the Iranian people.  This is directly responsible for the Iranian revolution in the late 1970s, and its establishment as an Islamic state under the guidance of the Ayatollah.  WE taught Iranians NOT TO TRUST western-style democracy.

        Who did this?  The CIA.

        In addition, in the ’50s, ’60s and ’70s, the CIA committed “regime change” of a horrible kind in Central and South America, Indonesia and African countries, as well as setting up a civil war in Vietnam, and also having interfered in elections in Italy and other countries, post-WW II, in favor of fascists.

        The CIA.  Allen Dulles.  So who is the CIA?

        David Talbot’s book, “The Devil’s Chessboard,” is very instructive on this question.  The CIA isn’t just the CIA; it is also the cabal of billionaires, banksters and war profiteers whom Dulles assembled as the supporters, beneficiaries and conspirators in league with the CIA.  That cabal is still with us.

        “…the binary clarity of the Cold War gave way to the intellectually incoherent “policy” in place today.”

        The policy of today is not “incoherent.”  It’s laid out quite plainly in the Neo-Con Bible, “The Project for a New American Century.”  They laid out their goal – world domination by any means necessary – including the list of countries they needed to invade, and the need for the re-militarization of the ‘sadly’ anti-militaristic, post-Vietnam American society, for which they would need “a new Pearl Harbor.”  They got their “new Pearl Harbor,” and here we are, still reacting to it, with war after war after war against the resource-rich countries, or pipeline route countries, they laid out in PNAC.  Next, of course, are Russia and China.

        This may be “intellectually incoherent” to you and me.  It is not to the authors of PNAC and to the billionaires, banksters and war profiteers (including corporate media) who have backed them.  And it is not incoherent to their tools in government, both at the top – Bush, Obama and Trump – and within the “permanent government.”  What they SAY about it may seem incoherent to us.  That is one of the functions of tools like Bush, Obama and Trump, their tools in Congress and elsewhere, and their tools in the media – to hide, to obfuscate, to lie, to confuse.

        HOW the Deep State is organized, and WHO are the chief perps, and this internal war among them for control of the Empire that erupted around the 2016 s/election are interesting and vital questions.  I will do some research on Dulles’ original cabal, as a starting point, but it has obviously metastasized into a larger, more complex and more international cabal in the fifty some years since their coup d’etat against JFK, the last president who had any independent control of our government.  JFK fired Allen Dulles and defied Dulles’ cabal on many grave matters including unleashing nuclear armageddon on Soviet Russia and paid with his life – an act of treason that the Deep State and its media have been covering up ever since, precisely because it is so revealing of the origins of  the Deep State.

        “Instead of defending our way of life from an irrational ideology…”

        Communism wasn’t irrational.  In fact, it’s biggest flaw may have been that it was too rational.  Communism called for all parts of the economy – including natural resources, infrastructure, means of production, land and property –  to be held in common by the workers and theoretically with the working class determining their use.  This was imposed on a mostly peasant population that had, recently and forever, been ruled by an absolute monarch, and had had only a very short experience of anything like democracy.  It quickly became a monarchy again, with Tsar Stalin, who accomplished industrialization, universal education, legal equality for women and many modernizations, including expansion and modernization of the military, in an astonishingly short amount of time but at very great cost in lives and repression.  Russia then suffered invasion by Hitler and lost millions of lives defending their country – the second time they had suffered a full-scale invasion – and they tried, in the post-WWII world, to create a buffer against further invasion by taking control of Eastern Europe – the beginning of the Cold War.  The Soviet Union was also influenced by the communist ideology of internationalism.  (“Workers of the world, unite!”)  This led to further Cold War conflict in a world where numerous countries were freeing themselves of European colonialism and choosing some form of socialism or communism as their economic system because of the rationality of those solutions.  The communists also disdained religion as “the opiate of the people,” and identified strongly with science and progress.  They rightfully noted that religious institutions identified with their rich donors and with the mystical notion of “royalty.”

        It was OUR system that was “irrational” – on the one hand ruled by the irrational “stock market,” which had plunged the U.S. and the world into the Great Depression prior to WW II, and was only reined in by FDR and the New Deal, to create a hybrid system of federal controls on banksterism and speculation combined with social welfare programs, support for labor unions and government investments in infrastructure and education.  The system was still subject to economic shocks – recessions, inflation/deflation and so on.  Reagan began dismantling the New Deal controls – including the controls on broadcast media meddling in politics – followed by Clinton dismantling of the banking controls, the Bush-Cheney and others’ assault on the progressive tax system, and Obama’s continuation of these anti-New Deal policies, and now we have a very irrational system again that resembles the madness of the 1920s.

        “…now we find ourselves arming both sides of fights that are utterly incomprehensible to the average citizen.”

        “Incomprehensible” they are, to “the average citizen” but they are NOT incomprehensible to the beneficiaries, our Overlords, who not only profit from all the weaponry but INTEND chaos in the countries they have ruined.  And, quite frankly, I think they may intend chaos here, too.  It’s hard to come to any other conclusion from the Billionaires’ Tax Heist that just occurred.  It is going to bankrupt the Federal government and plunge us into 1920s levels of poverty, suffering and displacement.

        • Koko (4895 posts)
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          41. Agree…

          with your whole post–from my own reading and observations through the years.

          What can we do about it is the question. At this point, it looks like the whole system will have to crash before any real reform can occur. Also, given the more rapid advance of Climate Change things could be very grim going forward.

          The sad thing is that its not like those of us who figured it out didn’t try to stop it: Nader (Consumer Movement), Gore, Environmental Movement, Anti-War/Pro Peace Activists. In fact the harder we tried the more, it seems, we were pushed back ( “Peanut Farmer” Carter, “Man from Hope Arkansas” Bill Clinton, “Two Americas” Kerry/Edwards and then “Hope and Change” Obama.

          The disastrous culmination of Hillary Clinton vs Donald Trump in 2016 as the only Presidential choices (because Bernie was excluded by the system) was the final nail.

          Can we still somehow manage to stop it?

          • Fire with Fire (1195 posts)
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            43. Can we still somehow manage to stop it?

            That is the question of our lifetimes.  My own view is actually extremely optimistic — although I see a very bumpy ride probably for the next decade or so.  If you are interested in why I am so optimistic, here are some threads I have started on the topic of where do we go from here.

            Political Revolution Moves On

            Fear Itself

            Why I Am Optimistic

            The Split of the Take


            • Koko (4895 posts)
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              45. Yes, there are some hopeful signs from your Post Links:

              Its probably going to take a momentous event like another stock market crash and Great Depression to fulfill the change we need, though.  And, that may not be far off.  If seeds for change have been planted then there is still hope. 

              But, if the greed of the wealthy increases (through favorable manipulation) as it did after the Dot Com Bubble Burst (early 2000) and, again, after the recent 2007-08 Financial Meltdown then it all will be for nothing, once again.

              From your OP Links:

              Jeremy Corbyn: Yes, a hopeful light has emerged in GB although Theresa May seems to cling on, she may not last much longer.

              Franklyn Roosevelt quote:
              Happiness lies not in the mere possession of money; it lies in the joy of achievement, in the thrill of creative effort. The joy and moral stimulation of work no longer must be forgotten in the mad chase of evanescent profits. These dark days will be worth all they cost us if they teach us that our true destiny is not to be ministered unto but to minister to ourselves and to our fellow men.


              Bernie Sanders:

              Quote from your OP:

              Two and a half years ago, when Bernie Sanders started his bid for the Democratic nomination, the American left was invisible in national politics.  I defy anyone to claim that as of April 2015 you really believed that Bernie Sanders would become the President of the United States.  Bernie had no more name recognition than Jesse Jackson, Ralph Nader or even Dennis Kucinich — none of whom ever came close to taking office.  And, to the amusement of the entire punditocracy, Bernie “bore the burden” of being a socialist which was universally deemed to be a laughably hopeless label to live down.

              Bernie is now the most popular politician in the country.   The word, socialist, is no longer even a slight impediment to his appeal.  Polling shows that his agenda of FDR style governmental intervention is now favored by the majority.


              From your last OP:

              I have to agree that if you are waiting for a mass “awakening” as the bulk of the citizenry embraces the concept of socialism, you are going to be disappointed.

              Nevertheless, we are watching a replay of the Magna Carta right now, as people are not content with the split of the take.  It does not matter what particular ideology any given individual espouses to explain her alienation from the current regime.  What matters is that more and more people realize that the story being told by the power structure is nothing but self-serving lies, akin to The Divine Right of Kings.


          • Enthusiast (12104 posts)
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            49. Plus one!

            "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson
          • Peace Patriot (3342 posts)
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            51. Here's my contribution to "Can we still manage to stop it?"

            Most hopeful concept I’ve seen laid out in a very long time.  VERY well researched.  Excellent presentation.  AS we solve global warming, using these 80 well-researched and well-tested solutions and scaling them up, we create a new society.

            Paul Hawken – “Drawdown”

        • Enthusiast (12104 posts)
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          50. Giant plus one!

          "I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." Thomas Jefferson
    • h-32 (77 posts)
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      31. deleted

      • Fire with Fire (1195 posts)
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        32. Good luck with that line of reasoning

        Fucking prostitutes two at a time and sharing the same movie star girl friend who commits suicide are not sexual assault.  Nevertheless in 2018, both the Kennedy brothers would be utterly destroyed.  It’s ok if we disagree about this point which is very peripheral to this thread — but ask yourself what happened to Gary Hart . . . .

        Regarding Trump and Moore, neither could get elected dog catcher in the Dem primary.   And neither will ever win an election again anywhere.


    • tonyl (1047 posts)
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      34. amid the morass that is the mixture of truth and lies ..

      even if we were to begin the arduous task of compiling lists of names, we would always have some doubt.

      Nevertheless, I have, on many occasions, suggested that we ought to make a beginning and take names of who appears to belong to the Deep State.

      Oh for a Madame DeFarge !!!

      Because you cant have integrity occasionally
    • Ferd Berfel (6135 posts)
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      37. Former Canadian defense minister

      Has a few thoughts on this……

      …and you think you’re going to stop this simply by ‘pulling a lever’, in a booth, behind a curtain, every 2 years? - Know yourself. And if you need help with that, call the FBI. -  There is only ONE solution to this mess:  New Party !  
      • Spanish Devil (346 posts)
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        47. That was very well worth listening to, and this thread

        well worth reading, thanks jpr.

        I hear Mr. Hellyer say nothing unrealistic here. Nothing cooky. Even where he refers to ‘chemtrails’ he refers only to USAF and contractors. I have seen no evidence that regular flights by civilian airliners might be involved.

        Far an taine ‘n abhainn, ‘s ann as mò a fuaim.

        Where the stream is shallowest, it is noisiest.

        • Ferd Berfel (6135 posts)
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          48. Do a search on hellyer

          Listen to him on extraterrestreal aliens in detail

          …and you think you’re going to stop this simply by ‘pulling a lever’, in a booth, behind a curtain, every 2 years? - Know yourself. And if you need help with that, call the FBI. -  There is only ONE solution to this mess:  New Party !  
    • chknltl (580 posts)
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      39. Maybe it is a 'what' instead of a "who".

      This is just something ive been considering for a few years now. Instead of looking at our problems as being caused by this or that person, i’ve turned the problem into an infection.

      Perhaps the corruption we call the Deep State is inherent in the combination of democracy with capitalism

      Imagine if you will that the Deep State is an organic organism. The organism itself is composed of many individual entities but they all do what their DNA program expects them to do.

      Like any species of organisms they feed, fight to preserve themselves, reproduce grow into available niches and even evolve.

      Just like if one places a bowl of fruit out, organisms will eventually arrive, fight for their toehold on the fruit, reproduce and try to devour as much of the fruit as it can.

      Eventually the fruit is devoured and the attacking organisms turn to dust.

      Regardless of how one may want to preserve that bowl of fruit sitting on that table, it has to eventually succumb to natural organic forces.

      The same with our democracy. We’ve chosen to use a system (capitalism), which will devour democracy just like those organisms devour that fruit on the table.

      It matters little which names we give to those organisms, they will always show up and do their thing.

      I believe that we can ‘evolve’ away from capitalsm. Unlike a bowl of fruit sitting on a table WE THE PEOPLE can make choices as to our direction-our fate.

      I believe that the best course of action is to evolve an immunity to capitalism.

      If we can do that, the Deep State may wither and die.

      If we don’t do this, capitalism will die anyway-die of starvation….because the human race, it’s food supply followed that bowl of fruit into history.

      Just an opinion.

    • bobthedrummer (3836 posts)
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      42. Introduction to the Deep State (Mike Lofgren)


      I hope you find this instructive Fire with Fire.  The Deep State has been around a long, long time imho.

      All power to the People.
    • Scott Crowder (775 posts)
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      52. Who are "They"? was used to undermine the Revolution in the 70's.

      But the answer is simple:  In the early 30’s Prescott Bush plotted a military coup to overthrow FDR.  It never happened because the man the approached Smedley Butler, blew the lid off the entire enterprise.


      In 1933, Butler was approached by men representing a clique of multi-millionaire industrialists and bankers. They hated U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt (FDR) with a passion, and saw his “New Deal” policies as the start of a communist take-over that threatened their interests. FDR even had the temerity to announce that the U.S. would stop using its military to interfere in Latin American affairs! Wall Street’s plutocrats were aghast! They had long been accustomed to wielding tremendous control over the government’s economic policies, including the use of U.S. forces to protect their precious foreign investments. Because of Butler’s steadfast military role in upholding U.S. business interests abroad, the plotters mistakenly thought they could recruit him to muster a “super-army” of veterans to use as pawns in their plan to subjugate or, if necessary, eliminate FDR.

      Butler played along in order to determine who was behind the plot. He later testifying under oath before the MacCormack-Dickstein House Committee on un-American Activities. During that testimony Butler named those who were directly involved in the plot. He also identified an powerful organization that was behind the scenes coordinating and backing the plot. This organization, the American Liberty League, was comprised of some of America’s wealthiest bankers, financiers and corporate executives. (Click the American Liberty League link for details on the League’s main backers.)

      Dig deeper and you find that a very large percentage of those people had KKK ties.  These people then went on to form the CIA.  This organization was never about counter intelligence.  It was created from day one to be a rogue entity to use against the working class and the left.

      The Deep State is an unholy alliance between the Deep South and banksters on Wall St.

      It was later, in the 60’s that the CIA killed Kennedy when he threatened to dismantle the organization.

      They targeted “FDR” Democrats, civil rights leaders, etc.  Thus the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, MLK, etc.

      In the 70’s, the neocons – Dick Cheney was put in charge of this as WH Chief of Staff – began the dismantling of the New Deal.  In the 80’s their man Reagan, who was on the Warren Commission report as had been Gerald Ford, continued the fascists agenda.  George Bush had taken over for his daddy by this time.  Bush has been identified as having been involved in the Kennedy Assassination, indicating the Bush families central role in the neocon movement to destroy FDR’s legacy.

      Bill Clinton aided the CIA drug smuggling operations of the 80’s.  He allowed heroin to be landed at runways in Arkansas.  This was during the Drugs for Weapons days of the Reagan administration.  His reward for being part of the CIA-Bush-Deep State regime was becoming the next POTUS.  Then came Bush Jr.  then Obama.  Now Trump.

      People can claim Hillary was supposed to be next, but Trump just pulled back the ban on highly lethal viruses. 

      As I have been saying for over a decade and have said here many times, the next step in the neocon agenda, as detailed in the PNAC

      Cheney was a founder for the Project for a New American Century (PNAC).  This is the neocon Holy Grail.  If you want to know what they plan for America’s future, just read that.  It contains all sorts of wonderful ideas, like how a “Pearl Harbor” type event would be necessary to propel America into thier “process of transformation”.  A completely “Ledeenian” type of statement.  Or how we should develop genome-specific bioweapons.  Eugenics being right up Michael Ledeen’s alley, I suppose.

      So Trump is merely continuing the agenda of the Deep State.  Meaning all this Russiagate crap is exactly what most of us have been saying all along:  a diversion from the Democrats stealing the primary from Bernie and fear mongering to keep Democrats in line and continue voting “lesser evil” instead of creating a viable third party to challenge their power.

      Think of all the “moderates” who, throughout history, have failed to oppose state-sanctioned aggression, oppression, and abuse, from slavery to child labor, while maligning those who call for change as dangerous and misguided, violent radicals. And yet, in retrospect, when a renewed social contract is established as the new normal, the unlawful actions that brought about these societal shifts are turned into mythical tales of nationalistic heroism and dates for kids to memorize at school.