Zelensky at G20: There will be no Minsk-3

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    • #497848
      jbnw
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 9,565

      “I am convinced now is the time when the Russian destructive war must and can be stopped,” Zelensky told world leaders in Bali, Indonesia.

      The conflict must end “fairly” and on the basis of the UN Charter, the Ukrainian leader insisted. However, he pointed out that Ukraine “shouldn’t be offered compromises with its sovereignty, territorial integrity and independence.”

      “Obviously, Russia’s words can’t be trusted, and there will be no Minsk-3 that Russia will violate immediately after the signing,” Zelensky claimed, adding that Moscow mustn’t be allowed to freeze the conflict and regroup its forces.

      https://www.rt.com/russia/566541-zelensky-ukraine-minsk-g20/

      🇷🇺🇺🇦”Zelensky’s statement that there will be no Minsk-3 confirms Kiev’s position on unwillingness to negotiate”-Dmitriy Peskov

      https://t.me/azmilitary11/28472

    • #497852
      djean111
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 8,718

      And having Biden and Zelensky use the G20 summit for the purpose of trying to gin up supoport for Ukraine and against Russia is not what the G20 is for.

      https://www.mea.gov.in/Portal/ForeignRelation/g20-august-2012.pdf

      The objectives of the G20 are: a) <b>Policy coordination between its members in order to achieve global economic stability, sustainable growth</b>; b) To promote financial regulations that reduce risks and prevent future financial crises; and c) To create a new international financial architecture.

      America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

      "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" GRRM

      A YouTube comment – we need new conspiracy theories – the old ones have all come true.

    • #497890
      ozoneman
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 574

      which caused this war, so I think Minsk III would be irrelevant.

      • #497893
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,565

        This is just Zelensky stating again that he won’t negotiate. After all, it doesn’t matter to him – he has nice places to flee to, assuming he survives.

    • #498101
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,527

      This is idiocy, not Patriotism.  Winter is pretty much here (at least, in my neck of the woods) and his people are going to be hungry, freezing, sick and suffering.  This is exactly the time for him and for world powers to call for ceasefire.

      No, Minsk 3 would sink, so might any other deal – but even a temporary one could save many lives.  This isn’t a war that Russia is going to lose long term.  Without diplomacy it will continue to be a way of attrition.  Assuming, of course, that some idiot Nation (like the U.S.) doesn’t do something stupid like using a tactical nuke, or giving one to Zelensky.

      Time to put on the adult people pants, sit the fuck down and talk about shit.

      • #498103
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 8,718

        capabilities of Ukraine, which will both prolong the war and cause even more deaths.  No one in the West even owns big boy pants.  And Russia is not going to abase itself – nor should it.  The US/UK/NATO/EU getting away with this shit would be ruinous.  They won’t stop there, you know.

        America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

        "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" GRRM

        A YouTube comment – we need new conspiracy theories – the old ones have all come true.

    • #498146
      David the Gnome
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 3,527

      @djean111

      Maybe a temporary ceasefire would end very badly.  Best to come up with a permanent one.  Yes, I share your feelings about western governments, just…

      There has to be a point at which sanity prevails.  There are several very good reasons that armies have never liked fighting in winter.  You’ll lose as many or more to the cold and hunger as the actual fighting.  Probably more, given the power situation in Ukraine.

      Maybe the Russians will come up with something, maybe the Ukrainian government, such as it is, will convince that fool Zelensky to sue for peace – even a disadvantageous one.

      Probably not.

      • #498150
        djean111
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 8,718

        Eddie Izzard has some quite hilarious bits about Napoleon and then the Germans invading Russia in the winter – “Bad idea!  Bad idea!  Bad Idea!” – followed by “Still a bad idea!”.  Also Ukraine likely only has tanks donated by the US and the EU now – not tanks meant for Russian winters.

        The point at which “sanity prevails” was passed a long long time ago.  IMO.  This is not about sanity, this is the culmination of many many many years of planning by the US/NATO to contain and/or just overthrow Russia and its government at any cost of lives and/or money.    The US and NATO made this happen.  Russia is not going to concede, nor should they.  The Ukrainian Nazis will just keep on killing Russians with gusto.  They do not care about big boy pants or sanity prevailing or peace talks; those are irrelevant to them.  FFS, they killed Ukrainians in order to make it seems like the Russians killed them.  There is no sanity there, just glee for killing – which the United States aids, abets, and funds.    The nukes will roll right up to the Russian border.  The US tried this via the Cuban Missile Crisis – which was entirely fomented by the US, the US was responsible for the Bay of Pigs coup attempt, and then put nukes in Turkey and Italy, aimed at Russia.  So Russia did the same in Cuba.  And it was the US who backed down, but Kennedy asked that that remain un-publicized, so as to make the US look better.

        I do not see where Russia conceding any fucking thing does not result in more lives lost.  But now the egos in the West are bloviating.  Nothing turned out the way it was planned – sanctions bit them in the ass, and no matter what Russia does, BRICS will keep on growing, MIR has replaced SWIFT for many countries, blowing up Gazxprom One (how is that NOT an act of terror?)  gives the EU a very cold and much more expensive winter, and loss of manufacturing capabilities,  the de-dollarization of the world will continue.  Oil and gas contracts have been made, to get around the sanctions.  As an aside, the US banks were told to keep doing business with Russia.  This is not just about a war between Russia and the US/EU/NATO, with Zelensky as the fall guy – which is all he deserves – but about imperialism.  As more and more countries are realizing, if the US can sanction, freeze, and steal Russian assets and money because Russia will not bend the knee – the US can and will do that to us, too.  THERE is where sanity needs to prevail;, IMO, the US.  Another FFS – the entire membership of the UN, except for the US and Israel – voted to stop the US blockade of Cuba.  And the US does not give a fuck.  Why would anyone believe anything the US says at a bargaining table?

        I do not hate the US or the people of the US.  I hate what the US government is doing in my name.

        Zelensky is now, I think, a sort of rogue puppet.  This “The Russians bombed Poland!!!!  Everybody bomb Russia!!”   thing is just, IMO, another rage and ego driven Hail Mary pass.  That failed immediately. Sopranos reference – Zelensky reminds me of Richie Aprile – Richie was told by Uncle Junior to go out and get support for whacking Tony – and Richie failed.  As Uncle Jun said, he couldn’t fucking sell it.  I think Zelensky has sailed past his shelf date on selling bullshit.   I said a day or so ago I was afraid of what Zelensky would try in the way of false flags to keep the money coming.  I think everybody understands it is not Zelensky that Russia is fighting against.

        America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

        "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" GRRM

        A YouTube comment – we need new conspiracy theories – the old ones have all come true.

        • #498160
          jbnw
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 9,565

          And I don’t know where it will stop.

          I know one Ukrainian trying to return to eastern Ukraine in a week – if she can get there. I know others who don’t want to return if they won’t be allowed to speak their native language.

          There’s more to resolve beyond just stopping shooting.

    • #498163
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 24,983

      When Mark Milley, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the big 5-sided imperial military HQ, says the Ukrainians should negotiate now because they will never again be in a stronger position, that should be a big honking clue of what’s coming if this war drags on.

      Ukraine has used up most of its old Soviet military stock. It is now using NATO weapons, with which Ukrainians are not adequately trained, are often excessively complicated(for more MIC profits for replacement parts), and are not designed to be used in typical Ukrainian winter conditions.

      Joe Biden just requested another $37 billion in aid to Ukraine, which happens to be 33% more than the Russians have spent thus far on this war according to Saagar Enjeti and he’s probably right. Meanwhile, Russia does have equipment designed to work in winter conditions even worse than those typically found in Ukraine, has at least 300,000 reinforcements headed to the front, along with Putin knows how many tanks, warplanes, armored personnel carriers, artillery, and missiles.

      Ukraine doesn’t have nearly that much in reserve. They’re maxxed out now, their power generation is being systematically dismantled, and winter is coming. There will be a Russian offensive if peace isn’t declared first, and the Ukrainians will not be able to stop it.

      Zelensky seems to think if he and his fellow Russophobes in the Baltic States scream loudly enough, that NATO will go to war against Russia to save his ass. It won’t. I wonder if he’s figured it out yet or not.

      Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

      The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

      • #498168
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,565

        Moscow may have mild winters – Siberia does not.

        Russia still hasn’t taken out the 750 kV power distribution, internet and mobile phone centers. They could easily complete cripple the rest of the Ukrainian infrastructure.

        And the country is still open – Rishi Sunak was just in Kyiv and walking around in the open with Zelensky.

        There are rare reports of huge Ukrainian army losses – but the numbers aren’t published.

        I don’t know what public support Zelensky has – but I doubt it’s much. However, it doesn’t matter while the SBU (secret service) and the military still support this war.

        • #498175
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 24,983

          Trains which are used to support troops and supplies, so the Russians can claim they are a legitimate military target. There’s no need for them to take out the things you mentioned in order to do that.

          I never knew Russians could be so selective in their targeting. I’m impressed.

          Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

          The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

      • #498169
        jbnw
        Participant
        • Total Posts: 9,565
        • #498173
          djean111
          Participant
          • Total Posts: 8,718

          Little bit of history from the always wonderful Eddie Izzard…..spot on, to this day…

          America is not a country, it's just a business. (Brad Pitt, Killing Them Softly)

          "Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, 'How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?'" GRRM

          A YouTube comment – we need new conspiracy theories – the old ones have all come true.

        • #498176
          Ohio Barbarian
          Moderator
          • Total Posts: 24,983

          Now imagine 500 of those things coming at you.

          Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

          The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

    • #498171
      Dunatus
      Participant
      • Total Posts: 825

      It was the Ukrainian government that violated both of the Minsk agreements, not Russia. This is just more bullshit propaganda for Western audiences.

    • #498177
      Ohio Barbarian
      Moderator
      • Total Posts: 24,983

      As usual, you’re straight to the point and 100% accurate.

      Never let your morals stop you from doing the right thing.--Isaac Asimov

      The United States is also a one-party state but, with typical American extravagance, they have two of them.--Julius Nyerere

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